Live data from Hacker News

All People in Canada are the Same Age (1997)

math.toronto.edu

101–102 of 102 posts

Re: All People in Canada are the Same Age (1997)

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is step 7 wrong? If all groups of k people had the same age, then everyone in G except P would have had the same age. That is a true proposition ('false => true' is true). The greater point of the excersise is to show a failure mode of an inductive proof. If the property hadn't been so clearly false, it may have been harder to spot the actual mistake ; the excersise is meant to prepare you for those other cases.

> If all groups of k people had the same age, then everyone in G except P would have had the same age. That is a true proposition ('false => true' is true) The logical formula is right but the premise is wrong. But 7 is considering both. It's like saying "Person P had 1Mi dollars and got 10% interest last year then now Person P has 1100k dollars". But Person P didn't. The interest calculation is correct, but the prem…

> It's like saying "Person P had 1Mi dollars and got 10% interest last year then now Person P has 1100k dollars". But Person P didn't. The interest calculation is correct, but the premise is wrong.

No it is not like that. It is like saying "IF person P had 1Mi dollars and got 10% interest last year THEN now Person P would have 1100k dollars". This statement is true regardless of how much money person P has today. That is how steps 5-8 work: they are true regardless of the truth of the antecedent ('in every group of k people, everyone has the same age'). Finding 2 people in Canada of the same age would NOT prove step 5 wrong (though it would show it to be pointless, of course).

Probably a much more interesting problem would have found a less obviously wrong premise to demonstrate this with. I'd love to find a way to build a similar argument for Fermat's last theorem or some other non-trivial observation.

Re: All People in Canada are the Same Age (1997)

#102
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you assume S(n) is true, n being any natural number, what good does it to to prove that S(n+1) is also true since it is included in the initial assumption imho. Read the explanation on induction at the bottom if you haven't yet[1]. This is induction. The idea is to prove that for any 'n' for which S(n) is true, S(n+1) is true also. I'm guessing Step 4 is where the wording tripped you up? > Step 4: We can do this…

I understand (at some level) what induction is. But the example given in the explanation of induction in the bottom is fundamentally different in that it does not assume anything. It simply calculates the formula for 1 and n+1 and both fit it. > Step 4: We can do this by showing that (1) for any k where it is true that "within every group of k people everyone has the same age," then (2) showing that it necessary foll…

Let me try again. Think of Step 4 like this:

---

STEP 4 REDUX RELOADED

Imagine a powerful argument. Let's call it "The Decider." "The Decider" is a series of logical steps that allows us to go from A to B, where A is a certain set of assumptions or facts that we know to be true, and B is a conclusion that we can demonstrate must be true if A is true. We can use the metaphor of a machine. “The Decider” is a machine that takes material in on one side, and spits out a product on the other. The input material is facts or assumptions, and the output is new facts or assumptions that logically follow from the input. For now, let's not worry about how "The Decider" works. Let's just imagine that there is in fact some way to fabricate such a logical apparatus that works the way we need it to work.

Now, suppose that the kind of fact “The Decider” ingests is a very special kind of fact. If you tell it “the sky is blue,” the metaphorical gears within “The Decider” grind to a halt. It doesn’t know what to do with this kind of fact. Instead, it requires a fact of the following form:

IN: “Within any group of k people, everyone has the same age.”

So for example, you can tell “The Decider”:

IN: “Within any group of 1 person, everyone has the same age.”

And “The Decider” will grind away until it spits out a shiny new assertion that must be true if your input was true. In fact, let’s suppose that the shiny new assertion “The Decider” would produce in this case would be:

OUT: “Within any group of 2 people, everyone has the same age.”

You could tell “The Decider,”

IN: “Within any group of 9 people, everyone has the same age.”

and it would work, too.

OUT: “Within any group of 10 people, everyone has the same age.”

In fact, “The Decider” follows a pattern. Whatever value k is in the input, the number in the output will be k+1. In other words, for any k that is a positive whole number, “The Decider” can turn “within any group of k people, everyone has the same age” into “within any group of k+1 people, everyone has the same age.”

If “The Decider” actually existed, if there was a general pattern of reasoning that could be used to go from A to B in this way, we would accomplish the task set out for us in Step 3. Namely, we would prove that, “whenever S(n) is true for one number (say n=k), it is also true for the next number (that is, n=k+1).”

END STEP 4 REDUX RELOADED

---

Steps 5 through 13 then proceed to describe how “The Decider” actually works. Or at least they try to. That is, they describe a general pattern of reasoning that purportedly can be used to show that if “within any group of 9 people, everyone has the same age,” then it must also be true that “within any group of 10 people, everyone has the same age.” It can also show that if it is true that “within any group of 2 people, everyone has the same age,” then it must also be true that “within any group of 3 people, everyone has the same age.” In fact, Steps 5 through 13 endeavor to create a logical argument so powerful that it can take any statement of the form “within any group of k people, everyone has the same age” and demonstrate that if that is true, it’s also true that “within any group of k+1 people, everyone has the same age.” This is “The Decider” I describe above.

Spoiler

The argument ultimately falls down because “The Decider” has a fatal flaw. When k=2, the logical machinery chokes. It implicitly relies on k being greater than or equal to 3.

Is that helpful at all?

Post reply on HN