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Etcd, or, why modern software makes me sad

roguelazer.com

141–150 of 648 posts

Re: Etcd, or, why modern software makes me sad

#141
post #35

Author is really good at discrediting themselves straight off the bat in one sentence: > for a ~~bullshit~~ unsuccessful project called CoreOS Container Linux that was EOL'd several years ago CoreOS was actually quite successful to me as an outside observer. It had decent paid user base as well as people using it without paying. It has showed people that Chrome OS can be used to build atomically updating host OS with…

The author is talking about keeping things simple which is not a bad idea. I am genuinely interested in why etcd switched to gRPC?

Re: Etcd, or, why modern software makes me sad

#142

When I read these anti-kubernetes articles, of which there is one every couple of months, I think of an analogy with tailors. I mean, a made-to-measure garment is strictly superior to what you can buy from Old Navy. If you take a tailor into Old Navy you would probably get a similar rant about how badly made the clothing there is. I also recognize that everything that Kubernetes/Docker is doing could be replicated mo…

> When I read these anti-kubernetes articles, of which there is one every couple of months, I think of an analogy with tailors. I mean, a made-to-measure garment is strictly superior to what you can buy from Old Navy. If you take a tailor into Old Navy you would probably get a similar rant about how badly made the clothing there is. I also recognize that everything that Kubernetes/Docker is doing could be replicated more simply and with greater craftsmanship.

But down in reality, most companies are probably running their own made-to-measure deployment and operation schemes with lower quality and consistency than Old Navy.

Re: Etcd, or, why modern software makes me sad

#143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think he/she made it clear it is needlessly replacing parts of the job. The question is, should one feel any one way about that. I’d imagine it would be the most annoying thing on earth, so it’s a valid emotion being expressed.

> I think he/she made it clear it is needlessly replacing parts of the job Maybe? There weren't any actual reasons for why the author so vehemently disliked all of the technologies mentioned, and there was certainly no acknowledgement of the potential benefits of them.

"This is systems. You are to be trying to be clever. Please stop." is a damn good rule of thumb and I think lots of people tend to go all-in on k8s without considering whether their use of the features will actually justify the level of additional clever so introduced.

To me, that being the 'actual reasons' was implicit from the rant - I don't disagree that it was a rant rather than an argument.

Re: Etcd, or, why modern software makes me sad

#144
post #23

It's mostly a rant about someone not accepting that extra performance can come at the cost of complexity. While I could argue with all the points that he's making, my main counterpoint is this: junior devs don't care that their http/2 server uses way more "complex" code then their http/1 server, it's just a flag away (or in most cases, automatic). Senior devs worth their salt also don't care, if I design an applicati…

Remember that the author is talking as a sysadmin, not as a dev

Re: Etcd, or, why modern software makes me sad

#145
post #92

> HTTP/2 a.k.a. SPDY is a comically bloated Layer 4/5/7 mega-combo protocol designed to replace HTTP. It takes something simple and (most importantly!) comprehensible and debuggable for junior programmers and replaces it with an insanely over-complicated system that requires tens of thousands of lines of code to implement the most minimal version of, but which slightly reduces page load time and server costs once you…

> HTTP/2 can only bring advantages if you actually go all the way to push/bundle resources into responses Compared to well-optimized HTTP/1 (e.g. using minified CSS and sprite-sheets), sure. Compared to most HTTP/1 deployments, though: no. HTTP/2 gives you tons of advantages "for free" that you need build-time processes to attain in HTTP/1. With HTTP/2, you can do "the naive thing" that'd you'd have done on the 1995…

I agree these things can be useful, but again none of these come out of the box (if I haven't overlooked or misunderstood something). Including "doing the naive thing"; I mean how do you expect your web server to automatically push CSS or SVG sprites/fonts unless you're relying on the server to intercept/parse your HTML for delivery-time optimizations a la PageSpeed and make heuristic scheduling decisions? Unless you're putting in the effort to optimize your payloads you will just result in as many roundtrips with HTTP/1.1 + keep-alive.

Re: Etcd, or, why modern software makes me sad

#146
post #133

This is one weird comment section. There are people attacking the author for a statement made about CoreOS, and for some hate towards Kubernetes. The key point of the article is not really being addressed here: vested interests from large companies are able to introduce huge complexity into simple, well-designed projects. While the complexity may be good for some end that said vested interest has in mind, they are al…

It's a shot across the bow at the Kool-Aid which everyone here has imbibed to some extent. Of course they're going to shoot the messenger. When I clicked this thread I said out loud to my team, "oh, this should be good," and I hadn't even fathomed precisely how predictable the discussion would be. It's so far removed from any consideration that it lands something like explaining to an American that they're a subject of the Queen. It makes no sense to objectively review the thinking when you're inside, and buy, the thinking.

Bear in mind the livelihood of nearly everyone participating in this conversation is impacted by the situation being lamented. It's telling that CoreOS employees felt compelled to set the record straight and casually "float ideas".

It's further curious to note the difference in HN's reaction to an extremely salty and offensive post from, say, Linus Torvalds, versus this one. People are really bad at objectively setting aside their ideology and tone is a kind excuse to get out of having to genuinely think about whether the angry individual might have a point, and when it hits close to home, well. All bets are off.

You're 100% correct on your overarching point but the less kind interpretation is "the incentives of modern software engineering value complexity to artificially strengthen a software engineering job economy". The good news is that the more Big Tech screws the pooch with user data management and software engineering, the stronger an argument I have among very receptive ears in government circles to start thinking of Big Web/FAANG as hostile to responsible computing innovation, because they never really bought what Mikey sold them, and the troupe that followed Mikey to Washington didn't hang around to explain the downsides or long-term management needs of the current landscape.

Re: Etcd, or, why modern software makes me sad

#147
post #133

This is one weird comment section. There are people attacking the author for a statement made about CoreOS, and for some hate towards Kubernetes. The key point of the article is not really being addressed here: vested interests from large companies are able to introduce huge complexity into simple, well-designed projects. While the complexity may be good for some end that said vested interest has in mind, they are al…

Couldn't agree with the sentiment of this comment more.

Re: Etcd, or, why modern software makes me sad

#148
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm mostly a happy systemd user. Unit files are much easier to work with and more consistent than init scripts, the faster bootup (at least on my arch and Ubuntu systems, maybe you could make Gentoo even more minimal with initscripts), and the container/isolation features won me over. That said, I can understand the objection to software that would previously support BSD or macOS now only providing systemd units or d…

Unit files are great. SystemD should have stayed there. But then it handles networking(including configuring network interfaces), and time synchronization, and name resolution, and the kitchen sink.

systemd even had a type of container system (I think predating docker by a few years) but no one used it

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Systemd-nspawn

Re: Etcd, or, why modern software makes me sad

#149
post #112

I really dislike articles like these. I don't think the author is interested in having any kind of productive discussion or criticism. There's a million reasons to hate Kubernetes, the author couldn't be bothered to venture beyond the lowest hanging fruit (yaml)? If I could downvote this I would.

But it's not about kubernetes. It's about simple API's becoming complicated for no reason (according to the author, I have no experience on etcd) using etcd as an example

The author doesn't detail _what_ is more complicated about the gRPC API, other than the fact that it's gRPC. One could implement the exact same API in HTTP or with gRPC; so without specific examples, it's kind of a meaningless critique.

Surely, most consumers of a database like etcd are using a client library, in which case why does it matter if the API is HTTP or gRPC?

Tangential: after reading some of the comments, I was surprised that the blog post was only like 250 words; the author really says very little.

Re: Etcd, or, why modern software makes me sad

#150
post #23

It's mostly a rant about someone not accepting that extra performance can come at the cost of complexity. While I could argue with all the points that he's making, my main counterpoint is this: junior devs don't care that their http/2 server uses way more "complex" code then their http/1 server, it's just a flag away (or in most cases, automatic). Senior devs worth their salt also don't care, if I design an applicati…

Heroku also forces you to accept your app will die and needs to run from a cold start. Surely there's more to this k8s thing than "it's cheaper than heroku" ?
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