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German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

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Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#101

I agree with this wholeheartedly, even as a Tesla owner. Tesla goofed from the beginning by calling tech like "Autosteer" and "Traffic Assisted Cruise Control" under the moniker "Autopilot" while shifting everything above that to "Full Self-Driving". They should have called it "CoPilot" since that infers that you're still the driver in charge of controlling the vehicle and it would have had exactly the same reception…

Elon is a master of saying something that's technically correct, but sounds like something completely different, something that people want to believe and is completely untrue. So the car has "full self-driving capability" but is not actually self driving. The "basic functionality for L5 will be done this year" but not actual self driving [0]. Autopilot branding comes from the same strategy.

[0] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla-autonomous/tesla-ve...

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tesla goofed from the beginning by calling tech like "Autosteer" and "Traffic Assisted Cruise Control" under the moniker "Autopilot" I am not accusing you specifically of using weak language, but let's call a spade a spade: it's not a "goof," it's a dangerous and deceptive business practice. It's one that Elon Musk is directly responsible for and directly encouraged with misleading statements where he deliberately…

I don't think it's dangerous, necessarily, unless you ignore people's personal responsibility in the situation as well. As currently designed, "Autopilot" requires you to keep your hands on the steering wheel, provide rotational counter-weight on it, and you have to agree to safety and attention disclaimers before you can even enable the features. Yes, there are absolutely misconceptions that may happen with the gene…

> I don't think it's dangerous, necessarily, unless you ignore people's personal responsibility in the situation as well.

Yes, but let us recognize the stark reality and known limitations of "the people" in the driving public - as Tesla should (and in my opinion did not or does not).

Not suggesting you are, but Tesla cannot hand-wave it.

While their may be an outsized amount of technical persons here on Hacker News that are perhaps aware of at least some of the technical risks and limitations of Autopilot and/or that state of autonomous driving systems in general, it is simply unrealistic and a fiction to expect that the broader driving public is going to be able to safely utilize an opaque, autonomous system with minimal safeguards and written instructions - particularly if they can be easily defeated.

We are talking here of newly minted drivers in their compulsive teen years all the way through older persons who may not familiar with technology nearly at all.

Take some time to visit TikTok and YouTube[1] where it is replete with fans and other owners are "showing off" Autopilot in dangerous and creatively dangerous ways that generate clicks and likes, pushing Autopilot to the limit and/or otherwise not paying attention to the roadway while Autopilot is engaged.

It is difficult for me to fathom that Tesla is not acutely aware of these issues given their focus on social media viral campaigns.

In fact, when my wife and I test drove a Model X in Chicago a few years back, one of the first things that the Tesla salesperson did was to encourage my wife to remove her hands from the steering wheel in Autopilot mode (which she did not). I cannot say for sure if this internal Tesla sales practice is alive and well today, but I would discount it.

In my view, this is and was always a core part of Tesla's sales model to move metal - and, thus, I think that Tesla tacitly approves of the social media abuses I noted above to draw attention to their vehicles (unless they are talking with a regulator or in a court of law). Case in point, other automakers are taking the strategy of installing in-cabin driver monitoring systems in their vehicles and/or limiting the use of autonomous features to certain roadways and roadway types which I think is at least safer in principle given the unsophistication of the driving public.

Tesla could employ the same in their vehicles, but then it would take away a key differentiator in their product from all others. Tesla knows this, so they resist.

[1] https://youtu.be/ja5Lt8rzKGg

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#103

I agree with this wholeheartedly, even as a Tesla owner. Tesla goofed from the beginning by calling tech like "Autosteer" and "Traffic Assisted Cruise Control" under the moniker "Autopilot" while shifting everything above that to "Full Self-Driving". They should have called it "CoPilot" since that infers that you're still the driver in charge of controlling the vehicle and it would have had exactly the same reception…

> Tesla goofed from the beginning

It's wasn't a 'whoopsie daisies we goofed up'.

It was a cynical play for market share.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#104
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's strange how much people will bend over backwards to give Musk the benefit of doubt when he openly lies about such things

Tesla is one part car company, one part battery company, and 5 parts marketing hype. The only reason people are seriously contemplating buying full electric cars today instead of the bullshit BMW produced is because Iron Man convinced enough people that electric cars will simultaneously fly to mars and cure world hunger. The stock reflects this. In other words, there is no Tesla without Elon's meme machine. The grave…

Have you driven one? There is plenty of (over)hype, but the cars are quite nice.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#105
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla is one part car company, one part battery company, and 5 parts marketing hype. The only reason people are seriously contemplating buying full electric cars today instead of the bullshit BMW produced is because Iron Man convinced enough people that electric cars will simultaneously fly to mars and cure world hunger. The stock reflects this. In other words, there is no Tesla without Elon's meme machine. The grave…

Are you saying people see Musk as a necessary "evil" to fight off a bigger evil (in the form of oil companies) and so they forgive his misgivings in a sort of utilitarian calculus?

No. I'm saying Tesla is successful because of Elon's hype. They are not "forgiving" his misgivings, they fully believe Elon will solve world hunger and invent FTL space travel. If you ask anyone who's bought into Tesla, they will tell you the "Auto Pilot on airplanes" lie, but they also believe Elon will deliver on Level 5 Autonomous driving. No cares about electric cars, they care about the guy's company who is using electric cars as a platform to save the world.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#106

I agree with this wholeheartedly, even as a Tesla owner. Tesla goofed from the beginning by calling tech like "Autosteer" and "Traffic Assisted Cruise Control" under the moniker "Autopilot" while shifting everything above that to "Full Self-Driving". They should have called it "CoPilot" since that infers that you're still the driver in charge of controlling the vehicle and it would have had exactly the same reception…

> Tesla goofed from the beginning by calling tech like "Autosteer" and "Traffic Assisted Cruise Control" under the moniker "Autopilot"

Aviation autopilots can do even less than that and yet they are still called "autopilot". Altitude hold? That's autopilot.

Also, "copilots" are generally fully capable of flying the aircraft and have the exact same capabilities.

If you are irked about the 'autopilot' moniker, then ditch aviation terminology entirely.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#108
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder why Tesla even needed to go that far to make the product sell. It is already a damn good car, a leader in its space. Also, Waymo which was closest at that time to Level 5 autonomy was far off from a product.

There is a reason no new manufacturers have succeeded in the past 100 years. Auto industry is tough and costly. Autopilot almost certainly gave them press and coverage that has helped sell cars and keep the company from collapsing. If a future promise is what it took to drive the battery revolution, it was a reasonable cost.

It's not just for press, they directly make money selling "FSD" add-on for ever-increasing thousands of dollars which currently does a couple of gimmicks, but, trust him: will soon be driving you around effortlessly (and other passengers for $$ when you're not using it)

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#109
post #63

Good. These statements are lies. The company should face punishment in the US for saying that full self-driving is blocked by “regulatory approval” when they’re still an unknown number of years away from even being able to demo something they plan to ship. They still don’t know if full self-driving is even possible at the required level of reliability with their current hardware suite. They could well be wrong and si…

When it gets there, regulatory approval will absolutely be a bottleneck to deployment. They don't say it is a current blocker. And it won't come close to Theranos. Tesla makes real products that are class-leading. Even if Tesla can't reach level 5, it will be damn close and make driving 10-100x safer than just a human.

No post body was provided.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#110
post #12

I wonder how much BMW/Daimler/Volkswagen had to do with this. It is a common practice for technology companies to offer features that will only become available after a certain time period. It actually takes time and money to build these features. I'm sure the fact that BMW/Daimler/VW have completely botched their EV/Autonomous vehicle strategy and the automotive industry is Germany's cash cow has nothing at all to d…

Announcing features to be delivered later is common. Charging up front for those features with no delivery date is a bit less common. In any case, should it not be made clear what the current capabilities of the car and system are as part of the advertising and purchase process? That seems to be the issue that the court is discussing, not the premise that Tesla is pre-selling future autonomous capabilities that have…

You are not required to buy the "full self-driving" package when you buy a tesla.

It is abundantly clear what the current feature set is. From https://www.tesla.com/autopilot :

> Autopilot enables your car to steer, accelerate and brake automatically within its lane.

Current Autopilot features require active driver supervision and do not make the vehicle autonomous.

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