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German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

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Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#91

Post by uniqueid »

HumblyTossed wrote: post #35
dkonofalski wrote: post #3

I agree with this wholeheartedly, even as a Tesla owner. Tesla goofed from the beginning by calling tech like "Autosteer" and "Traffic Assisted Cruise Control" under the moniker "Autopilot" while shifting everything above that to "Full Self-Driving". They should have called it "CoPilot" since that infers that you're still the driver in charge of controlling the vehicle and it would have had exactly the same reception…

If you use the wayback machine and look at their AutoPilot page, the very first thing you see is ... well, here: https://web.archive.org/web/20170201120106/https://www.tesla... They wanted people to believe that this had more capabilities than it really does.

   > All Tesla vehicles produced in our factory, including Model 3, have the hardware needed for full self-driving capability at a safety level substantially greater than that of a human driver.
My my, that is brazen!

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#92

Post by dkonofalski »

bakuninsbart wrote: post #70
dkonofalski wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's dangerous, necessarily, unless you ignore people's personal responsibility in the situation as well. As currently designed, "Autopilot" requires you to keep your hands on the steering wheel, provide rotational counter-weight on it, and you have to agree to safety and attention disclaimers before you can even enable the features. Yes, there are absolutely misconceptions that may happen with the gene…

Apparently, the dictionaries are in conspiracy with the general public, as they also define autopilot as "a device that keeps aircraft, spacecraft, and ships moving in a particular direction without human involvement". The etymology of the word automatic is also very telling. Generally we ascribe meaning to words by how people use it, and I'm not sure I'd call marketers people.

Is a car now interchangeable with "aircraft, spacecraft, or ships"?

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#93

Post by nemothekid »

typon wrote: post #32
ojnabieoot wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Tesla goofed from the beginning by calling tech like "Autosteer" and "Traffic Assisted Cruise Control" under the moniker "Autopilot" I am not accusing you specifically of using weak language, but let's call a spade a spade: it's not a "goof," it's a dangerous and deceptive business practice. It's one that Elon Musk is directly responsible for and directly encouraged with misleading statements where he deliberately…

It's strange how much people will bend over backwards to give Musk the benefit of doubt when he openly lies about such things

Tesla is one part car company, one part battery company, and 5 parts marketing hype. The only reason people are seriously contemplating buying full electric cars today instead of the bullshit BMW produced is because Iron Man convinced enough people that electric cars will simultaneously fly to mars and cure world hunger. The stock reflects this.

In other words, there is no Tesla without Elon's meme machine. The graveyard of failed EV startups was chockful of more well meaning participants before Tesla came along. I'd go as far as to argue that the Elon's bullshit was the only thing that could stand up to big oil.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#94

Post by gibolt »

SheinhardtWigCo wrote: post #86
gibolt wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When it gets there, regulatory approval will absolutely be a bottleneck to deployment. They don't say it is a current blocker. And it won't come close to Theranos. Tesla makes real products that are class-leading. Even if Tesla can't reach level 5, it will be damn close and make driving 10-100x safer than just a human.

Sure, but to even mention it now is disingenuous because they’re not even close to having a solution that their own engineering department would be willing to ship. You and I have no idea whether it’s possible to get close to level 5 with their currently shipping hardware. Neither do they. And this stuff about being 10-100x safer than a human is pure fantasy right now. The industry is incredibly far away from that an…

10x is within striking distance. Search for Autopilot reporting for the evidence. While it is biased towards highway miles, all the safety features augment the human driver. This will only get better with time.

Shipping is different from functional. You don't know what their engineering department thinks. Unless you are an insider, it is hard to guess the timeline, trajectory, or confidence levels.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#95

Post by billfor »

I wonder how many people complaining about Tesla's marketing actually have a Tesla. The car clearly makes you acknowledge that the driver is responsible before using any Autopilot/FSD capability, and if you bought the car with the expectation that it didn't , you have a return period to get your money back in full. It doesn't matter if they said it would take you to the moon and back. If you test drive or buy it and don't like it then just return it: no harm done.

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#96

Post by chrisseaton »

dkonofalski wrote: post #90
chrisseaton wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They should have called it "CoPilot" [rather than "AutoPilot"] Huh but a co-pilot is much more capable than an auto-pilot system. An auto-pilot mostly keeps you level, going the right speed, and pointing in the right direction, and can do some limited landing and things. That sounds to me exactly like what Tesla's system does? A co-pilot is a human who can take complete control from you for the rest of the whole fl…

You're transposing airplane terminology with automobile terminology. In a car, the co-pilot is typically someone that sits in the passenger seat and functions only as an additional set of eyes. They can't take complete control over the vehicle from that spot. Cars, unlike airplanes, don't have two sets of full controls.

> You're transposing airplane terminology with automobile terminology.

Well yeah... transposing terminology is how an analogy is supposed to work. And I didn't pick the analogies - Tesla did and then you proposed another flying analogy!

> In a car, the co-pilot is typically someone that sits in the passenger seat and functions only as an additional set of eyes.

Do you mean a co-driver? Like in a rally car? I've never seen that called a 'co-pilot' before.

If you don't want to confuse with aeroplanes, why didn't you suggest 'co-driver'?

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#97

Post by typon »

nemothekid wrote: post #93
typon wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's strange how much people will bend over backwards to give Musk the benefit of doubt when he openly lies about such things

Tesla is one part car company, one part battery company, and 5 parts marketing hype. The only reason people are seriously contemplating buying full electric cars today instead of the bullshit BMW produced is because Iron Man convinced enough people that electric cars will simultaneously fly to mars and cure world hunger. The stock reflects this. In other words, there is no Tesla without Elon's meme machine. The grave…

Are you saying people see Musk as a necessary "evil" to fight off a bigger evil (in the form of oil companies) and so they forgive his misgivings in a sort of utilitarian calculus?

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#98

Post by Domenic_S »

kalenx wrote: post #59
NeutronStar wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is one of definition. I don't know why people associate autopilot with a definition that isn't autopilot. An autopilot is a system used to control the trajectory of an aircraft, marine craft or spacecraft without requiring constant manual control by a human operator. Autopilot does not replace human operators. Instead, autopilot assists the operator's control of the vehicle, allowing the operator to focus o…

The "why" is not really relevant here, the general perception is. The fact is, if you say "autopilot" and "self driving capabilities" to most people, they will infer that the car does not need a driver to be operated safely, which is definitely not the case.

How do you know what most people think? Could this be a case where the small minority of people are the loudest?

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#99

Post by FabHK »

natch wrote: post #31

Can someone provide a link to a Tesla advertisement? Haven't seen this.

https://www.tesla.com/de_de/models

> Hardware für autonomes Fahren Jedes neue Model S verfügt standardmäßig über modernste Hardware, um die Autopilot-Funktionalität schon heute und vollkommen autonomes Fahren in der Zukunft zu ermöglichen. Software-Updates werden diese Funktionalität im Laufe der Zeit weiter ausbauen und verbessern.

> Die Autopilot-Funktionalität ermöglicht dem Fahrzeug automatisches Lenken, Beschleunigen und Bremsen auf seiner Spur. Die Funktionalität für autonomes Fahren bietet zusätzliche Merkmale und erweitert bestehende Funktionen, um Ihrem Fahrzeug weitere Fähigkeiten zu verleihen.

Looks like a pretty close translation of the same thing on the US site:

https://www.tesla.com/models

> Full Self-Driving Hardware Every new Model S comes standard with advanced hardware capable of providing Autopilot features today, and full self-driving capabilities in the future—through software updates designed to improve functionality over time.

> Autopilot enables your car to steer, accelerate and brake automatically within its lane. Full Self-Driving Capability introduces additional features and improves existing functionality to make your car more capable over time including:

Re: German court bans Tesla ad statements related to autonomous driving

#100

Post by jdminhbg »

uniqueid wrote: post #91
HumblyTossed wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you use the wayback machine and look at their AutoPilot page, the very first thing you see is ... well, here: https://web.archive.org/web/20170201120106/https://www.tesla... They wanted people to believe that this had more capabilities than it really does.

> All Tesla vehicles produced in our factory, including Model 3, have the hardware needed for full self-driving capability at a safety level substantially greater than that of a human driver. My my, that is brazen!

It's also almost certainly true. Whether you think LIDAR-based systems are the way to go, there's no doubt that full self-driving based on cameras is possible given the right software. That's what humans are, after all, so it's "just" a matter of building the software to drive that hardware.
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