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Etcd, or, why modern software makes me sad

roguelazer.com

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Re: Etcd, or, why modern software makes me sad

#21

Post by sam_lowry_ »

dimgl wrote: post #5
sam_lowry_ wrote: post #3

"Kubernetes is the worst thing to happen to system administration since systemd." I'll take that quote into my fortune file.

What are some of the arguments against `systemd`? I've used it in several production systems and don't really have an opinion on it.

Almost like with etcd, it started simple, but got expanded into a huge incomprehensible monster by the original developers. Politically and business-wise, systemd is a clear win for Lennaert and his clique, as well as the whole Redhat/IBM.

But I am sure that future historians will view the impact of systemd on computing as largely negative.

Re: Etcd, or, why modern software makes me sad

#22

Post by Supermancho »

hoebbz wrote: post #11
williamstein wrote: post #2

This seems rude and also dishonest/revisionist, eg "In 2015, an unrelated tool called Kubernetes was released by Google (but, really, by Xooglers)".

What is dishonest/revisionist about the statement you have quoted?

How many of the original committers still work at Google? I think it's clear that the author means to point out that the originators have left Google.

Re: Etcd, or, why modern software makes me sad

#23

Post by gnur »

It's mostly a rant about someone not accepting that extra performance can come at the cost of complexity.

While I could argue with all the points that he's making, my main counterpoint is this: junior devs don't care that their http/2 server uses way more "complex" code then their http/1 server, it's just a flag away (or in most cases, automatic). Senior devs worth their salt also don't care, if I design an application that is going to run on kubernetes I now know it will run in the big cloud providers and on premise without major changes. It forces you to accept that your app will die and needs to be able to run from a cold start without any issues. I can't count the number of machines I've encountered over the years that couldn't be rebooted because the maintainers monkeypatched the crap out of it while running EoL distributions, libraries and web servers.

And now I've realized I've become a geek yelling at the cloud as well.

Re: Etcd, or, why modern software makes me sad

#24

Post by freedomben »

dimgl wrote: post #5
sam_lowry_ wrote: post #3

"Kubernetes is the worst thing to happen to system administration since systemd." I'll take that quote into my fortune file.

What are some of the arguments against `systemd`? I've used it in several production systems and don't really have an opinion on it.

You may not realize you're inciting a flame war. If you google for this there's no shortage of arguments going back 10 years and continuing to this day

Re: Etcd, or, why modern software makes me sad

#26

Post by runawaybottle »

scaryclam wrote: post #15
williamstein wrote: post #2

This seems rude and also dishonest/revisionist, eg "In 2015, an unrelated tool called Kubernetes was released by Google (but, really, by Xooglers)".

Agreed. The writing style is so full of bile that any actual point just drowns in it and makes the author seem petty and bitter about the world. Not a good read, even for those that agree with the author about unneeded complexity.

Should bile and bitterness and pettiness never ever be expressed in written form?

Re: Etcd, or, why modern software makes me sad

#27

Post by dilandau »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #16
dilandau wrote: post #9

There's a lot of justified hatred for kubernetes, but for fuck's sake why did anyone adopt it in the first place, if they didn't understand what they were getting into? It's like the startups from 10 years ago who absolutely had to use MongoDB because "scale", and then they never get off the ground because they're trying to implement ACID from first principles.

Hype train tickets are cheap to get on, but expensive to get off.

Since hackernews is mostly junior devs or senior principle architects (formerly junior devs), I expect there's a lot of stockholm syndrome going on in these comments.

Better get out of here before they notice us.

Re: Etcd, or, why modern software makes me sad

#28

Post by dimgl »

freedomben wrote: post #24
dimgl wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are some of the arguments against `systemd`? I've used it in several production systems and don't really have an opinion on it.

You may not realize you're inciting a flame war. If you google for this there's no shortage of arguments going back 10 years and continuing to this day

I didn't realize it was a touchy subject. That's my bad. I'll do some research on this.

Re: Etcd, or, why modern software makes me sad

#29

Post by listennexttime »

hoebbz wrote: post #11
williamstein wrote: post #2

This seems rude and also dishonest/revisionist, eg "In 2015, an unrelated tool called Kubernetes was released by Google (but, really, by Xooglers)".

What is dishonest/revisionist about the statement you have quoted?

How tedious to have to constantly refute FUD when it's easy to find the answers with Google.

Anyone involved in Kubernetes, near CoreOS at the time, or really anywhere in the space at the time (instead of looking back at it with anger), knows this all to be false. CoreOS was setting direction for etcd, and understandably adding features for one of its bigger users (and in fact, some of those features are used by things of larger scale than k8s).

Kubernetes itself was started by Googlers, many of whom are still there or left to go... do Kubernetes at Red Hat (IBM) or as a startup, or at Microsoft. But to act like it was an outside project started by people who had previously quit, or are somehow unqualified to work on an orchestrator, is just an an angry untruth. Every major committer to Kubernetes besides a handful of RH folks were at Google when Kubernetes 1.0 came out. I'm happy to be corrected but I know it's hip af to hate k8s (just like two days ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23807556)

Re: Etcd, or, why modern software makes me sad

#30

Post by tehalex »

dimgl wrote: post #5
sam_lowry_ wrote: post #3

"Kubernetes is the worst thing to happen to system administration since systemd." I'll take that quote into my fortune file.

What are some of the arguments against `systemd`? I've used it in several production systems and don't really have an opinion on it.

Here's a good article that I saw on HN a few months ago: https://blog.darknedgy.net/technology/2020/05/02/0/index.htm...

Also: https://suckless.org/sucks/systemd/

Personally I avoided it for a while because of the hate, but haven't really had issues with it since using it.

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