Resignation Letter • Hacker News Board

Re: Resignation Letter

#41

Post by kup0 » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 4:05 PM UTC

LegitShady wrote: post #24

alecb wrote: post #4

There's several layers of irony here, chief of which Bari Weiss headed a very vocal campaign to fire anyone at Colombia who didn't exist on the far-right on Israel/Palestine - and of course, falsely painted several professors as racist and anti-Semitic: https://theintercept.com/2018/03/08/the-nyts-bari-weiss-fals...

There are many things I disagree with Weiss on, including her previous flirtation with cancel culture, but by attacking her with an article from 2 years ago instead of addressing what she is talking about directly is not really honest debate. There is a cleaving point coming for those who believe in Liberal values and the nyt has already chosen the side of extreme ideological orthodoxy.

Unless there's proof she's changed from then until now, I think it's a rather relevant proof of hypocrisy and that one should rightly doubt whether what she's saying now is just more of the same

Re: Resignation Letter

#42

Post by 0x8BADF00D » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 4:06 PM UTC

kup0 wrote: post #26

alecb wrote: post #4

There's several layers of irony here, chief of which Bari Weiss headed a very vocal campaign to fire anyone at Colombia who didn't exist on the far-right on Israel/Palestine - and of course, falsely painted several professors as racist and anti-Semitic: https://theintercept.com/2018/03/08/the-nyts-bari-weiss-fals...

Yeah hard to take seriously someone who was "masquerading as an opponent of viewpoint intolerance" while simultaneously being intolerant of any viewpoints that aren't pro-Israel

Whoa, cool it with the Anti-Semitism there buddy! /s

Re: Resignation Letter

#43

Post by asdf21 » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 4:06 PM UTC

CJefferson wrote: post #15

Speaking as someone who absorbs American media externally, there does seem to be a disconnect looking in. About 40% of the America seems to still support Donald Trump, under most polls. It certainly isn't true that 40% of the media supports Donald Trump. As an external viewer, it's easy to imagine no-one was ever going to vote for Donald Trump, no-one ever supported him, and no-one supports him today, but that's clea…

Exactly right. Something like 97% of news coverage is critical towards Trump.

I'm not sure what that number should be, but 97% seems like there is a deeper and systemic issue.

Re: Resignation Letter

#44

Post by majormajor » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 4:06 PM UTC

Claiming that there's anything new going on here is a cheap rhetorical trick.

We're seeing the complaints of people who have lost control over what's acceptable. The people who would've wanted to come for the communists or the homosexuals are now on the wrong end of the prevailing winds, and whether that's "better" or "worse" depends on one's own beliefs on those issues... but it's not so much a societal change as just a window that has moved.

There are books that make convincing arguments that "heresy"-based reactions are ultimately detrimental - such as The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind from a few decades ago, decrying the lack of reason in the American church from an inside perspective - but that example also shows the answer to the "what are the consequences?" question: you get a *very effectively motivated" political constituency.

Re: Resignation Letter

#45

Post by LegitShady » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 4:06 PM UTC

jgwil2 wrote: post #14

> Americans still hunger for news that is accurate, opinions that are vital, and debate that is sincere. The market would suggest otherwise.

The market is contorted by secret algorithms promoting some news over other news, banning of people and ideas, etc.

Re: Resignation Letter

#46

Post by gfodor » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 4:06 PM UTC

alecb wrote: post #4

There's several layers of irony here, chief of which Bari Weiss headed a very vocal campaign to fire anyone at Colombia who didn't exist on the far-right on Israel/Palestine - and of course, falsely painted several professors as racist and anti-Semitic: https://theintercept.com/2018/03/08/the-nyts-bari-weiss-fals...

Hilarious that the top comment exemplifies the problem. It seems few today are still able to engage with ideas directly, always trying to filter them through some, any, lens to discredit the ones they don’t like. Sometimes it’s attacking the speaker, sometimes their associations, sometimes the tweets they have “liked.” If all else fails, seek out language in the text itself for unfalsifiable “dog whistles” that allow the affixing of a label. Whatever allows one to shield their eyes, ignore the argument made, and secure the moral high ground.

Re: Resignation Letter

#47

Post by ngngngng » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 4:07 PM UTC

jgwil2 wrote: post #14

> Americans still hunger for news that is accurate, opinions that are vital, and debate that is sincere. The market would suggest otherwise.

Completely disagree. And I think Joe Rogan's podcast is the perfect example of how the market is suggesting exactly what you replied to.

"Normal Americans" don't read the NYT anymore, or WSJ, or the Post, they listen to Joe Rogan on Spotify and Youtube. There's virtually no limit to who Joe will have on his show, and while he's not a remarkable interviewer, he brings the often vital opinions of his guests on all sides of many issues, and he asks sincere questions for hours on end.

Re: Resignation Letter

#48

Post by wait_a_minute » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 4:07 PM UTC

jakelazaroff wrote: post #7

> All this bodes ill, especially for independent-minded young writers and editors paying close attention to what they’ll have to do to advance in their careers. Rule One: Speak your mind at your own peril. Rule Two: Never risk commissioning a story that goes against the narrative. Rule Three: Never believe an editor or publisher who urges you to go against the grain. Eventually, the publisher will cave to the mob, th…

There is a lot of space in-between complete censorship and freedom to be curious. If we were already at complete censorship, she would have been silenced already. Issuing a warning about the trend while we're on the ride towards censorship does not mean there is no trend. That is what she is doing here. She is raising the alarm.

If we had to wait to hear an alarm until silencing was the only possibility, there wouldn't be an alarm anymore.

Re: Resignation Letter

#49

Post by LegitShady » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 4:07 PM UTC

akhilcacharya wrote: post #22

jger15 wrote: post #2

think this makes the paper less interesting (regardless of political views held)

The masthead lost all credibility with this article [0] days before the election. They did spend lots of time and effort understanding the rest of America (sure, that’s fine and good) with little understanding or reflection of their own impact. [0] https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/01/us/politics/fbi-russia-el...

The story seems accurate.

Re: Resignation Letter

#50

Post by JamesBarney » Tue, Jul 14, 2020, 4:07 PM UTC

LegitShady wrote: post #24

alecb wrote: post #4

There's several layers of irony here, chief of which Bari Weiss headed a very vocal campaign to fire anyone at Colombia who didn't exist on the far-right on Israel/Palestine - and of course, falsely painted several professors as racist and anti-Semitic: https://theintercept.com/2018/03/08/the-nyts-bari-weiss-fals...

There are many things I disagree with Weiss on, including her previous flirtation with cancel culture, but by attacking her with an article from 2 years ago instead of addressing what she is talking about directly is not really honest debate. There is a cleaving point coming for those who believe in Liberal values and the nyt has already chosen the side of extreme ideological orthodoxy.

I think there are definitely some points in her essay that ring true. But the author engaging in behavior only 2 years ago that she is condemning today is certainly a valid and relevant criticism.