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Deschooling Society (1970)

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171–180 of 205 posts

Re: Deschooling Society (1970)

#171

I wish people would think about the format they use to present their ideas more. If you're presenting arguments based on empirical evidence and logic, you are building a directed graph. Using long-winded prose to represent it is the wrong data structure, which makes working with it (comprehending and contemplating its merits) difficult.

That’s effectively what Wittgenstein was saying in the Tractatus, only to turn around and repudiate all of it in the Philosophical Investigations—at the end of the day, logical systems based on the manipulations of symbols are one thing while the messy reality of being human and living is quite another.

Re: Deschooling Society (1970)

#172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Foucault's distinctly french and distinctly intellectual. The two are definitely touching the same elephant, and if you like Foucault you'll probably find something in Illich, but Illich appeals to a less intellectual and more American (religious?) audience that would turned off by -- or simply never get past the first page of -- Foucault. Religious fundamentalist homeschoolers will read Illich and get something out…

"intellectual" sounding but certainly not actually "intellectual". Foucault's explanation for why leprosy disappeared from Europe is pure psudoscience, along with the entirety of psychoanalysis (which he accepted at least partially). I don't like scholars who take the likes of Lacan as being serious instead of charlatans Foucault had some good ideas in works like Discipline and Punish or A history of Sexuality but fi…

While that’s a fair assessment, (even philosophers that idolized and refined Foucault’s methods (see Ian Hacking) point out his loose handling of historical fact) that’s not really why people read Foucault and to ignore the entire edifice of his thought because of such mistakes would be the very definition of missing the point.

In my opinion, it is not so much the concrete historical subjects of Focualt’s work that are valuable, but rather his approach at developing a mode of critique founded on historicity and his reminding us in a very general and strong sense that our present is determined by a complex of historical events that don’t actually fit into the neat and tidy bundled up narratives histories present (since this is usually the objective of writing history) but that things are far less coherent and far more like structural emergent phenomenon than they are the effects some historical will (a la Hegel) or the interests of “great men”. Not to mention he does what any great philosopher should do which is make us recognize the concepts we take for granted thanks to years of idioms and cliches being drilled into our heads are not so simple after all (his analysis of power). I think it is the task of every philosopher worth salt to de-hypostatize concepts.

This is why critiques that take issue with Foucault for “forgetting the subject” are taken more seriously and have more ground to stand on than any shallow dismissals on account of a few factual flubs.

Re: Deschooling Society (1970)

#173
post #2

"Many students, especially those who are poor, intuitively know what the schools do for them. They school them to confuse process and substance. Once these become blurred, a new logic is assumed: the more treatment there is, the better are the results; or, escalation leads to success. The pupil is thereby "schooled" to confuse teaching with learning, grade advancement with education, a diploma with competence, and fl…

“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.” ~ Robert Anson Hein…

Once you start digging deep enough into problems to make a difference there is not enough hours in the day to be more than a dilettante in a more than a limited set of topics.

One does need some general skills, some of those listed above, but you'll definitly need first aid skills like stopping bleeding before learning how to set a bone. School is about the only place that systematically teaches general skills to everyone, not just people with paretns with enough time, skills and energy to do so or hire someone to do that for them.

Re: Deschooling Society (1970)

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an engineer and military officer that made a career of writing, was active in real estate and silver mining and politics, knowing not a single other thing about him, I assume (and I am, admittedly, erring a little on the side of generosity in my assumptions, but my goal is to aim for "is it plausible?" not "did he definitely?"): -to change a diaper -plan an invasion (navy officer) -butcher a hog -conn a ship (navy…

That list really irritates me. > - to change a diaper Ok? What if one never intends to have kids. > -plan an invasion For goodness' sake, why is that important outside of the military? > -butcher a hog Irrelevant to most people. > -conn a ship So? Are we in the navy or maritime service? A gent in Montana has no need of this, > -design a building Design, engineer, or build? > -write a sonnet Popular for schoolchildren…

> - to change a diaper > Ok? What if one never intends to have kids.

Then...one should still have that skill. I mean, I didn't have kids until my 40s and the only decade of my life where I didn't apply that skill was the first.

> -plan an invasion > For goodness' sake, why is that important outside of the military?

It's not, but Heinlein—and while some of the list might be more Long-the-character than Heinlein though the broad outline is clearly Heinlein, including at least the outline of the military focus of not the particular examples—(hardly uniquely in US history, one might note—this was a common belief among the founders) viewed military service, including leadership, as something one should be prepared to assume at need (whether on behalf of or against one’s government, as dictated by the need) not a profession for a distinct and isolated caste whose skills the rest of society could afford to neglect, and viewed the contrary view as incompatible with liberty. (I imagine that, had our adulthooda overlapped, as they didn't quite, I'd have been pretty far from Heinlein politically. But on this point, we could agree.)

> The Great War should have cured him of this dream.

That someone should be prepared to die gallantly at need does not imply that the Great War (or war generally) is particularly the occasion where such death was most likely to be called for. Certainly while Heinlein clearly believed it was possible that that could occur, one could hardly read his body of work without recognizing that he saw that possibility outside of war and, likewise saw much, if not most, death in war as pointless and unnecessary.

> Anchored in the past and a different priority system.

It may have been written a half century ago by someone whose formative years were a century ago, but I don't see anything particularly dated about it. It may speak to a different set of ideals than you hold, but I don't know why it is surprising or irritating that disagreement on that level exists.

Re: Deschooling Society (1970)

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not enough people understand this. It blew my mind when I first learned about illiteracy rates among Americans. And once you understand innumeracy you begin to understand just how vulnerable people are to coercion. And how people think that 1% fatality rates are no big deal.

The illiteracy rate in the US is really quite incredible, with the federal government reporting something like 20% of the population to be "low literacy" https://nces.ed.gov/datapoints/2019179.asp

Wow - I really thought the first gp in this thread must be wrong, and then researched the UK and we are similar - around 20 to 25 percent. Blows my mind - it appears the levels haven't changed much since the 40s in the UK - which shocked me.

Re: Deschooling Society (1970)

#176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there a particular “cure” that was recommended by Marx/Engels for addressing their observations on the relationship between capital and labor in mid-19th century industrialist England that you found specifically impractical for the time?

I think he was referring to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Communist_Manifesto Perhaps specifically: "In the last paragraph of the Manifesto, the authors call for a 'forcible overthrow of all existing social conditions', which served as a call for communist revolutions around the world." And we know how those went.

The greatest managers of capitalism are authoritarian communists.

Re: Deschooling Society (1970)

#177

My god, when I read stuff like this (and some comments here), I think -- only someone who grew up in a society which benefitted from all the supposed ills of education and useful institutions could even have the luxury to write or seriously believe something like this. This is like saying that because of a small percentage of (yes, I agree) non-ideal outcomes, one should dismantle the entire system that has gotten us…

I think there is a large collection of evidence showing that education does not bring prosperity. It's prosperity that brings education. The importance of education is exaggerated.

Re: Deschooling Society (1970)

#178
post #34
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That whole argument is a massive straw-man in service of a libertarian attack on the funding of social institutions like hospitals and schools. I would hope that for consistency, Illich on principle refused to take treatment from Germany's health care system, populated by medical professionals who are the product of the education system he so detested. There is a lot to be critiqued with the way that medicine and edu…

I agree. And it's such an easy target. Everybody hate schools. But the fact of the matter is that public schools were one of the prominent factors in reducing poverty around the world. As in any institution, it may calcify and be corrupted. But that's just how systems are, injecting the right amount of innovation usually takes care of that. No need to throw the baby with the water, and rethink the whole paradigm. I t…

> I agree. And it's such an easy target. Everybody hate schools.

This is not true. I dont hate schools. My kids dont hate schools. My friends did not hated schools and my kids friends dont hate schools. There are people, both adults and kids who hate school, of course. And then there are very crappy schools. Speaking to my collegues, they dont hate schools and only two hated school as a kid. And even these do like their kids schools, but they took more care about what is going on there (like they put more effort into selection of school).

But I think that people HN are heavily biased against the schools, the way no other forum or social group I encountered is.

Re: Deschooling Society (1970)

#179
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. And it's such an easy target. Everybody hate schools. But the fact of the matter is that public schools were one of the prominent factors in reducing poverty around the world. As in any institution, it may calcify and be corrupted. But that's just how systems are, injecting the right amount of innovation usually takes care of that. No need to throw the baby with the water, and rethink the whole paradigm. I t…

It's actually a pretty good time to rethink everything. The modern school was designed when most adults were illiterate, books were expensive, and we needed to train the population to work in our factories or join the military. Schools did a good job at that. But times are different. 1. Most adults are literate — When kids have questions about letters or words while they are teaching themselves to read they have a hu…

> 1. Most adults are literate — When kids have questions about letters or words while they are teaching themselves to read they have a huge supply of adults and older children to get help from.

I had first grader during corona lock down and I can tell you that ability to read/write does not imply ability to help the kid to learn to read and write. This part about kids learning to read by themselves and by asking question of adults around of, frankly, complete nonsense for wast majority of kids.

Re: Deschooling Society (1970)

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I don't agree. In fact, I think I'm quite objectively estimating the effects of our institutions. I think you're the one stating drastic estimations. I would say that our education system is helping to free people to move across class and wealth lines far more than keeping people where they are. The amount of social mobility in the US ranks with the best of many countries. Of course, tons of studies show this…

Study after study has shown that the US actually has some of the lowest social mobility in the developed world, and its poor educational systems and strictly rationed access to high quality learning environments are a direct contributor to that. Part of the reason is because education is a political football. From school boards up to the presidency, everyone has an axe to grind. Ironically - because there's so little…

The countries higher up the list did not rejected schools nor institutions. In fact, they have less homeschooling then us have (not that it has relation to anything).
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