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Deschooling Society (1970)

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Re: Deschooling Society (1970)

#141

Post by [deleted] »

wittyreference wrote: post #93
mikestew wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone ever figure out if even Heinlein himself accomplished those skills? Because, frankly, it makes a nice trope or whatever, but I question the literal seriousness Heinlein had when he wrote that. Perhaps as an early prototype of The World's Most Interesting Man, but not to be taken as a literal bucket list.

As an engineer and military officer that made a career of writing, was active in real estate and silver mining and politics, knowing not a single other thing about him, I assume (and I am, admittedly, erring a little on the side of generosity in my assumptions, but my goal is to aim for "is it plausible?" not "did he definitely?"): -to change a diaper -plan an invasion (navy officer) -butcher a hog -conn a ship (navy…

[deleted]

Re: Deschooling Society (1970)

#142

Post by danans »

mikestew wrote: post #74
rednerrus wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.” ~ Robert Anson Hein…

Anyone ever figure out if even Heinlein himself accomplished those skills? Because, frankly, it makes a nice trope or whatever, but I question the literal seriousness Heinlein had when he wrote that. Perhaps as an early prototype of The World's Most Interesting Man, but not to be taken as a literal bucket list.

Also consider that it's not as impressive a list as it rhetorically seems. If you spit into a crowd of people at least 30 years old, you'll probably hit a person who has done at least 10 of them, maybe more.

Re: Deschooling Society (1970)

#143

Post by marnett »

alexashka wrote: post #119

I wish people would think about the format they use to present their ideas more. If you're presenting arguments based on empirical evidence and logic, you are building a directed graph. Using long-winded prose to represent it is the wrong data structure, which makes working with it (comprehending and contemplating its merits) difficult.

Is there a movement, say Informational Philosophy, that embodies your thought on this? I find it interesting, but philosophers have typically used long form prose to build up their logical theories and arguments.

Your argument seems to be that language is not conducive to our brains forming the graph-like relationships the prose builds up. I do not know have an intimate enough understanding of linguistics to understand if modern theories support this view.

Re: Deschooling Society (1970)

#144

Post by mieses »

danans wrote: post #102
mieses wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In that case it must also be a contradiction for BLM, Ilhan Omar and AOC to benefit from the "garbage country" they live in.

No, because none of them are calling for the abolishment of the country they live in. They are calling for its improvement, just as many of their reasonable opponents do.

Abolition (abolishing something) can be an improvement, except when it's not.

From one point of view, those reasonable anarchists and marxists are only seeking to "improve" the US. From the other point of view they are trying to abolish it. You're forced to pick a side. Jacobin calls for revolution demand binary outcomes. It's exactly analogous to Illych proposing that education can only be improved by abolishing educational institutions. There's no middle ground.

Re: Deschooling Society (1970)

#145

Post by dragonwriter »

danans wrote: post #142
mikestew wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone ever figure out if even Heinlein himself accomplished those skills? Because, frankly, it makes a nice trope or whatever, but I question the literal seriousness Heinlein had when he wrote that. Perhaps as an early prototype of The World's Most Interesting Man, but not to be taken as a literal bucket list.

Also consider that it's not as impressive a list as it rhetorically seems. If you spit into a crowd of people at least 30 years old, you'll probably hit a person who has done at least 10 of them, maybe more.

Also he doesn't say a human should have done all of them, only that they should be able to.

Re: Deschooling Society (1970)

#146

Post by danans »

supernova87a wrote: post #109
voisin wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> small percentage of (yes, I agree) non-ideal outcomes I think you are drastically underestimating the prevalence of non-ideal outcomes. I guess it depends on your definition of non-ideal, but if you think something like “reinforce class and racial boundaries” is non-ideal then surely you would agree the non-ideal outcomes are extremely prevalent?

Sorry, I don't agree. In fact, I think I'm quite objectively estimating the effects of our institutions. I think you're the one stating drastic estimations. I would say that our education system is helping to free people to move across class and wealth lines far more than keeping people where they are. The amount of social mobility in the US ranks with the best of many countries. Of course, tons of studies show this…

> Even if the institution contributes only a small part of the outcome's determinants. Even if by dismantling the institution, you wouldn't be sure whether the outcome would be different. But you want to try, right? Just to see if it does something? Without proof.

> I don't want you to have that nuclear option. I'm willing to work towards solutions to make things better, but I don't believe in the extent of systemwide conspiratorial reinforcement of class/racial boundaries that you believe causes these outcomes.

You don't need to give someone the nuclear option, but it's important to recognize that there are clear race/class biases (not conspiracies), in the educational system in order to, as you say, work toward solutions to make things better:

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2019/02/14/no-room-a...

Re: Deschooling Society (1970)

#147

Post by marnett »

Der_Einzige wrote: post #95
throwawaygh wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Foucault's distinctly french and distinctly intellectual. The two are definitely touching the same elephant, and if you like Foucault you'll probably find something in Illich, but Illich appeals to a less intellectual and more American (religious?) audience that would turned off by -- or simply never get past the first page of -- Foucault. Religious fundamentalist homeschoolers will read Illich and get something out…

"intellectual" sounding but certainly not actually "intellectual". Foucault's explanation for why leprosy disappeared from Europe is pure psudoscience, along with the entirety of psychoanalysis (which he accepted at least partially). I don't like scholars who take the likes of Lacan as being serious instead of charlatans Foucault had some good ideas in works like Discipline and Punish or A history of Sexuality but fi…

I assume your hate towards Lacan extends towards Slavoj Žižek as well?

Re: Deschooling Society (1970)

#148

Post by santoshalper »

throwawaygh wrote: post #39
minerjoe wrote: post #2

"Many students, especially those who are poor, intuitively know what the schools do for them. They school them to confuse process and substance. Once these become blurred, a new logic is assumed: the more treatment there is, the better are the results; or, escalation leads to success. The pupil is thereby "schooled" to confuse teaching with learning, grade advancement with education, a diploma with competence, and fl…

I loved Illich when I was in high school. I read all of his books, dug up old audio recordings, and even built a website hosting all of the hard-to-find stuff he wrote. Reflecting on his work now, I think Illich's anti-institutionism was extreme and his alternatives are genuinely not compelling. Deschooling Society 's critique is powerful, and Learning Webs is literally exactly how I learned how to program. But, it's…

Illich reminds me a lot of Ayn Rand. Not so much for what they believe, but in the way that both of their worldviews appeal so much to sheltered but intelligent teenagers. If you have a very limited depth of understanding of the world and how complex it can be, they seem to have ALL the answers.

Re: Deschooling Society (1970)

#149

Post by pnathan »

minerjoe wrote: post #2

"Many students, especially those who are poor, intuitively know what the schools do for them. They school them to confuse process and substance. Once these become blurred, a new logic is assumed: the more treatment there is, the better are the results; or, escalation leads to success. The pupil is thereby "schooled" to confuse teaching with learning, grade advancement with education, a diploma with competence, and fl…

Having seen firsthand the uses and failures of institutions, give me an institution. Or I'll build it if I have to.

That paragraph is very, very, very unwise.

Re: Deschooling Society (1970)

#150

Post by danans »

mieses wrote: post #144
danans wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, because none of them are calling for the abolishment of the country they live in. They are calling for its improvement, just as many of their reasonable opponents do.

Abolition (abolishing something) can be an improvement, except when it's not. From one point of view, those reasonable anarchists and marxists are only seeking to "improve" the US. From the other point of view they are trying to abolish it. You're forced to pick a side. Jacobin calls for revolution demand binary outcomes. It's exactly analogous to Illych proposing that education can only be improved by abolishing edu…

> Abolition (abolishing something) can be an improvement, except when it's not.

You're shifting your argument. Both AOC and Omar are Democratic Socialists (in same vein as the traditionally dominant parties of Northern Europe), not anarchists or marxists. Neither is calling for the abolishment of the US or its governmental institutions, but rather for its growing wealth and income inequality to be addressed. If anything, the loudest voices for abolishment of state institutions today are coming from the right.

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