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The stock market and economy have parted ways

washingtonpost.com

251–260 of 542 posts

Re: The stock market and economy have parted ways

#251
At least we can dispense with the idea that the stock market is driven by short-term thinking.

Prices are high because investors expect things to be better in the future, even though things are bad right now. Maybe the investors are wrong, but at least they are thinking about the long term, or at least the intermediate term.

Re: The stock market and economy have parted ways

#252
post #190
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is actually very hard to get real gold (especially in a form that you can convert back to cash in the future). Just try to get delivery of a gold bullion. And if you succeed, try selling it into the system again, without losing 30%. Paper gold is a bet no different than a stock; it is a bet that the system and your counterparty will both be solvent when you need them.

Not that I'm advising anyone to get them, but what would be the counterparty risk with gold ETFs? You don't believe their guarantees that they are backed up with actual gold? eg: https://etf.invesco.com/gb/private/en/product/invesco-physic...

Even if they have the actual gold, they have the actual gold. If they decide not to give it to you, there needs to be enough of a functioning court system to remedy that; and even then it may take time - just because you have a legitimate claim to that gold doesn't mean a court can easily decide that you're the only one with a legitimate claim to that gold.

Re: The stock market and economy have parted ways

#253

I spoke to my financial advisor a month ago and he told me he was not worried of a major and sustained drop as FED and Congressional intervention had helped curtail that before it spiraled out of hand. But I cannot help but see current market prices and see current for lease and boarded up building. I wonder if he was correct. I wonder if the advice he has given me is wrong? I believe we are about 9months away from t…

my first (only) financial advisor was a manager at RadioShack for 10 years before he got the advisor job.

relatedly, i once applied as a network admin at Ed Jones. They didn't have their shit together when i showed up for the interview, and gave me the questions for the financial advisor interview instead. it was an automatic process, about 100 questions that were some variant of "how good or bad do you feel about asking your friends to buy financial products you don't understand well, and will you also please ask them to recommend you to their friends?"

i didn't get the job. and i fired the advisor.

Re: The stock market and economy have parted ways

#254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very likely, yes. However, it is much less debilitating to get a shot every three months.

It's unlikely that would be sustainable for long for various reasons. You're talking about needing literally tens of BILLIONS of shots a year for the forseeable future? If immunity is not long lasting, then the only path out is global eradication. We have done it before with smallpox.

I don't see us getting to the levels of vaccinations that would be necessary for eradication. A quarter of the people in the US think the whole thing is a ploy to implant everyone with microchips and nothing will ever convince them otherwise. Maybe some of those people will change their minds when they get it but I wouldn't count on enough to matter. We're all going to be sick and dying for decades.

Re: The stock market and economy have parted ways

#255
post #219

Conspiracy theory time! I don't really believe either of these with any non-trivial degree of probability, but I figure at worst I'd get downvoted, and maybe I'd get some insightful takes. There was an opinion expressed after '08 that the crisis was used by "elites" to conveniently get rid of (as in fire, mostly) a bunch of people that were, to them, superfluous. Like, that was long overdue and there was a good excus…

I have a bolt on to this conspiracy theory. How many business have reduced wages and implemented hiring freezes? It's difficult to manipulate a salary worker into shouldering more responsibility if they have choice and alternatives. Perhaps what we're watching isn't necessarily the 'winner take all' world playing out. Perhaps we're watching capital reorganize labor. The first nail in the technical revolution. The businesses that survive this crisis will be leaner and, in a likelihood, more profitable (higher margins). Also justifying higher stock prices. Hell, even a combination of both theories make sense.

The real tell will be 10/1/2020 an on-wards. That's when a lot of the governmental layoff-freezes disappear. We'll get a real sense of what industries have been seriously propped up.

Re: The stock market and economy have parted ways

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is part of the issue that there is just too much money has been printed and hoarded and its creating some weird effects? The government has been printing money for a long time, to stimulate the economy, provide spending money, etc. Due to 80/20 rule, rich get richer effects, etc, a large portion of money the government prints ends up in the hands of a relatively small group who doesn't spend it but rather tries to in…

Printing money has recently shown to have little impact on inflation. This is likely due in part to lack of consumer spending (can't inflate prices if nobody is buying it anyway) as well as spreading the USD across billions of people in dozens of interconnected economies that base off the dollar. The recent $5 trillion injection from the Fed (buying bad debt/assets) and Treasury (stimulus/PPP) may simply show that we…

Printing money to get through a recession vs printing money as the primary way of funding government programs are wildly different things. The mere suggestion that U.S. officials were serious about running a deficit of a large percentage of GDP could send people fleeing U.S. dollar denominated assets, and thanks to the exchange rate effects cause a spike in inflation before the programs even started.

The thing that makes a green piece of cloth valuable is the powerful government and the massive reserve bank behind it. If a dollar bill starts to look like an IOU from an entity that has no capacity to pay, it will be valued as such.

Re: The stock market and economy have parted ways

#257
post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fed will continue printing until Boomers die off... there is a lot of wealth locked up in 401k that needs to be disbursed. This block votes and they vote often and if their little pennies are threatened, they will vote people out. Edit: If you think these market rises are anything other than a way for the rich to rinse their money before the market bombs, I have a bridge to sell you, it's very pretty.

Imagine referring to an entire generations' life savings as "their little pennies."

Only half of those over 55 have any retirement savings [1], the other half have no retirement pennies to speak of.

While not great for online discussion, I can understand where the sentiment comes (the evidence is clear older generations strip mined the country economically [and continue to do so], pulled the ladder up behind them, and then are shocked when younger citizens are resentful).

[1] https://www.gao.gov/assets/680/670153.pdf

Re: The stock market and economy have parted ways

#258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Month over month volatility is a poor reason to put money there. Long term average growth is a good reason. Over the 10-20 year periods in the last century, what widely available asset classes perform better?

If you invested into the German stock market in 1914, it would have taken over 100 years to get your money back. The America of the past 100 years has been quite exceptional. Using its history to predict the future is not a good idea, IMO.

Let that be a lesson: do not spend all your money at once. Buy chunks of stocks (etfs) periodically.

Im sure the result would be much better then.

Re: The stock market and economy have parted ways

#259
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a money printer channels money directly into assets than its entirely feasible that the money printer can drive the asset to an arbitrary valuation e.g. asset hyperinflation. Great for making the economy appear solvent, terrible for everything else.

If this were true, Zimbabwe would have a lucrative stockmarket. It's not true though. A high enough inflation rate damages investor confidence and makes business operations more complex. I means constantly needing to minimize cash on hand in the local currency, or having to price contracts in inflation adjusted dollars increasing risk and mental overhead of doing business. At extremis, it means many market participan…

This is true when viewing from an external currency. If I only care about the nominal value of the S&P500 or the nominal price of oil/copper/steel/aluminum/Gold in dollars. Then the nominal price can inflate indefinitely.

Historically no one has been able to inflate assets, without inflating the real economy. If the Fed's QE approach is having this effect then even as a dollar spender you would want to hold assets above all else.

Re: The stock market and economy have parted ways

#260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Month over month volatility is a poor reason to put money there. Long term average growth is a good reason. Over the 10-20 year periods in the last century, what widely available asset classes perform better?

If you invested into the German stock market in 1914, it would have taken over 100 years to get your money back. The America of the past 100 years has been quite exceptional. Using its history to predict the future is not a good idea, IMO.

Are you sure about the German stock market? I've googled and found this https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:CDAX-Kursindex.png
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