So this article shows that you can infer S(n+1) from S(n) for n > 1, and a base case of S(1) is true. However, you can't infer S(2) is true from assuming S(1) is true in the same way, ie. a group of 2, could be represented as two groups of S(1) and S(1). You can't claim these two S(1) groups share the same age. This means that the base case and the inductive step are not connected, which means the proof is invalid.
I got really confused when they just seemed to assume that. But that doesn’t appear to be what they consider the fallacious step.
All People in Canada are the Same Age (1997)
81–90 of 102 posts
Re: All People in Canada are the Same Age (1997)
#82People is a group of more than one. So S(1) is invalid case.
Re: All People in Canada are the Same Age (1997)
#83Earlier quoted context omitted.
That is not the fallacy, that is the wrong conclusion. The fallacy is in step 9 combined with step 1. Step 9 requires at least 3 people to exist - P, Q, and R. So, step 9 only works for k>=2. So, we have proved S(1),S(k>=2) => S(k+1), but we haven't proved S(2). Of course, S(2) (in any group of 2 people, both people have the same age) is not true, so the whole conclusion is false. In inductive proofs you always need…
I see your point, but I kinda disagree, and again, that's why this is more confusing than helpful. You're taking a false premise and running with it, then tripping far ahead and saying that's the fallacy. > but we haven't proved S(2). Well, not surprising you haven't proven it, because you're already deep down in the mud on steps 7 and 8 > Step 7: Consider everybody in G except P. These people form a group of k peopl…
The trick in this proof is that the steps for proving k+1 in terms of k don't work for all k > 1, which invalidates the generalization that the induction depends on. The steps obscure an extra predicate on the generalization, so that it's not fully general.
If the proof (of some other property) didn't have that hidden predicate, or something like it, it would be fine. The problem really is that far down.
Re: All People in Canada are the Same Age (1997)
#84Earlier quoted context omitted.
That is not the fallacy, that is the wrong conclusion. The fallacy is in step 9 combined with step 1. Step 9 requires at least 3 people to exist - P, Q, and R. So, step 9 only works for k>=2. So, we have proved S(1),S(k>=2) => S(k+1), but we haven't proved S(2). Of course, S(2) (in any group of 2 people, both people have the same age) is not true, so the whole conclusion is false. In inductive proofs you always need…
I see your point, but I kinda disagree, and again, that's why this is more confusing than helpful. You're taking a false premise and running with it, then tripping far ahead and saying that's the fallacy. > but we haven't proved S(2). Well, not surprising you haven't proven it, because you're already deep down in the mud on steps 7 and 8 > Step 7: Consider everybody in G except P. These people form a group of k peopl…
Steps 7 and 8 are perfectly fine. Everything up to that point is perfectly fine. The problem is only in step 9, exactly in that "with the exception of k < 3" (actually k<2) - because the trivially true base case of k=1 is that exception. The induction step is correct, it just doesn't work for the only available true base case.
Re: All People in Canada are the Same Age (1997)
#85Step 9 doesn't work because it introduces a third person, and so fails to demonstrate S(2)
Re: All People in Canada are the Same Age (1997)
#86If you assume S(n) is true, n being any natural number, what good does it to to prove that S(n+1) is also true since it is included in the initial assumption imho.
If you define "P and Q are any members of G" then "everybody in G except P" can only mean to me an empty group. Also "Let R be someone else in G other than P or Q" can only mean R must be outside the group.
Can somebody explain these to me?
Re: All People in Canada are the Same Age (1997)
#87I don't understand some things regarding the resoning: If you assume S(n) is true, n being any natural number, what good does it to to prove that S(n+1) is also true since it is included in the initial assumption imho. If you define "P and Q are any members of G" then "everybody in G except P" can only mean to me an empty group. Also "Let R be someone else in G other than P or Q" can only mean R must be outside the g…
Your confusion comes from the language in the question of "ANY SPECIFIC N" versus "ANY, as in ALL N".
Say, n=3. Then, we assume S is true for the value n=3, but we don't yet know if S holds for any other n (1,2,4,100 etc.), which we have not assumed. However, we show that IF S is true for n=3, THEN that alone implies it's also true for 4 (n+1). Of course then, we could probably show the same process for SOME value of n, 3 or otherwise, and the corresponding n+1! So instead of writing n=3, we just write n and save ourselves the task of having to check all those numbers. Nevertheless, our assumption was that S was true for one specific n, and not all n at the same time!
So we do two things, and it makes sense to think of it in reverse order.
First, if S is true for any specific n we pick (and not necessarily ALL other n), is it THEN also true for n+1? At this stage, we have identified two "n" for which S holds of all possible n. More precisely, we have picked one and assumed S holds, and then found a second one. However, note that the choice of which n we assume to be true was "free" among ALL n. Think of "dynamics" instead of "state" if you are an engineer. But we started with the assumption that S is true for at least one n, the n we chose. Maybe we can not find such an n, in which case it doesn't matter that it would also be true for n+1. Therefore, the second question is: can we find an n for which S is true?
Then it's true for ALL n! But we need the two components. We need to know the relationship of n->n+1, and we need at least one "real" value of n where S does in fact hold.
Your second question is similar. The author means: Pick any two members of G, but you gotta pick two specific members. Since the proof works independently of whom you pick, it goes through for all others. However, it does not mean that you "pick all members" of G!
The "gotcha" moment you had, seeing that the choice of the two members was arbitrary, is usually what completes such a proof. You show the thing you want to show for two specific members of G, but then you circle back and state proudly: "But see, I could have picked ANY member of G. Hence, this must holds for all "dyads" of two people in G!"
Edit: And to understand why the proof fails - the author does not actually proof the n->n+1 step for any arbitrary n, only for n>=2. The specific "real" value he finds, however, is n=1. Therefore, the two steps are disconnected, the n->n+1 does not hold if n=1.
And this is precisely where the "ANY n" versus "ANY as in ALL n" comes into play again. n=1 is qualitatively very different to n=2. S is obviously true for n=1 (one person), but it's obviously not always true for n=2 (two people). While the author proofs that n=2 implies S for all n, this is not true if we start with n=1. However, n=1 is the only thing we can actually show to be really true. In that sense, for the purpose of showing that all Canadians are of the same age, the asserted step of n->n+1 (given n>1) is irrelevant, because we can not find such an n>1 where we can show that this is true!
Here you can see that while we do the proof for any arbitrary but specific n, not assuming it is true for any other value of n, we still need to ensure that we do in fact mean ANY of the n we can pick, including n=1!
Re: All People in Canada are the Same Age (1997)
#88I don't understand some things regarding the resoning: If you assume S(n) is true, n being any natural number, what good does it to to prove that S(n+1) is also true since it is included in the initial assumption imho. If you define "P and Q are any members of G" then "everybody in G except P" can only mean to me an empty group. Also "Let R be someone else in G other than P or Q" can only mean R must be outside the g…
You can't prove that S(n) is true for all values of n by just going through each possible n and proving it, since n can be anything so you'll be there a while.
The way this works is, you attempt to show that _if_ S(n) is true, _then_ S(n+1) is also true. Then you show that S(1) is true. Since S(n) being true implies that S(n+1) is also true, you can show that S(2) is true since 2 = 1+1 (you've proven the case where n=1). Then since S(2) is true, so is S(3), and S(4), S(5), ... and so on.
The way the links proof works is:
You show that S(1) is true. The set of 1 person {A} must have everyone in that set being the same age (there's only one person in it after all).
The next step is to show that if S(n) is true, then S(n+1) is also true. To do this we can take an example set of people {P,Q,R}, in this case we are saying that this is the group of n+1 people (so n=2). We can take {Q,R} (the set of everyone except P) and know that they are the same age (since we have assumed S(n) to be true, as long as we can show this relation works, we only need to prove one value of n to prove all of them, and we've already done this with S(1)). We can also do this for the set {P,R} using the same reasoning.
Since Q=R (Q and R are the same age) and P=R, we can prove that P=Q since P=R=Q. This shows that as long as S(n) is true, so is S(n+1).
Where this proof breaks down is this proof only works for a set of people larger than 2. So we haven't actually proven that S(1) being true implies S(2) is true, since this relation does not hold, we can't rely on S(n) being true.
Re: All People in Canada are the Same Age (1997)
#89Earlier quoted context omitted.
I see your point, but I kinda disagree, and again, that's why this is more confusing than helpful. You're taking a false premise and running with it, then tripping far ahead and saying that's the fallacy. > but we haven't proved S(2). Well, not surprising you haven't proven it, because you're already deep down in the mud on steps 7 and 8 > Step 7: Consider everybody in G except P. These people form a group of k peopl…
The basic principle of induction is to prove k+1 in terms of k. If we can show it's true for k=1, then it's true for all k>1 as well. But assuming that it's true for k is a basic part of inductive proofs. It's like falling dominoes. You show the first domino falls; you show that, if the previous domino falls, the next domino will also fall; and thus all the dominoes fall. The trick in this proof is that the steps for…
> in this proof is that the steps for proving k+1 in terms of k don't work for all k > 1,
Yes and those are steps 7 and 8, not step 9. Because that "proof" is already wrong. It comes from a wrong premise, surely, but that's already wrong at this time
This is why I'm calling BS on step 9 being the fallacy there.
> Step 5: Let G be an arbitrary group of k+1 people
> Step 7: Consider everybody in G except P. These people form a group of k people, so they must all have the same age (Right conclusion from wrong premises)
> The trick in this proof is that the steps for proving k+1 in terms of k don't work for all k > 1,
7 and 8 doesn't work for any k > 1, it's not "for all" it's "for any". That's why this is so ridiculous
Step 9 fails for kSo yeah the induction doesn't work, but it's not only because of step 9, it's because of 7/8 (which are just erroneous conclusions of a false premise)
Re: All People in Canada are the Same Age (1997)
#90So this article shows that you can infer S(n+1) from S(n) for n > 1, and a base case of S(1) is true. However, you can't infer S(2) is true from assuming S(1) is true in the same way, ie. a group of 2, could be represented as two groups of S(1) and S(1). You can't claim these two S(1) groups share the same age. This means that the base case and the inductive step are not connected, which means the proof is invalid.
It's simpler than that -- the "proof" of the inductive step is just incorrect. It wouldn't be a theorem in a sound logical system.