US citizens warned they face arbitrary arrest in China • Hacker News Board

Re: US citizens warned they face arbitrary arrest in China

#251

Post by dirtyid » Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 10:28 PM UTC

mthoms wrote: post #245

mytailorisrich wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the faulty reasoning is to assume that the arrest of these 2 Canadians means that Canadians are not safe in China. This is FUD. As said, this overlooks who these 2 Canadians are: There are apparently hundreds of thousands of Canadians in China and the 2 arrested clearly have links to the Canadian government and/or intelligence agencies. The probability of being mugged and shot in the US is probably higher but…

>the 2 arrested clearly have links to the Canadian government and/or intelligence agencies. One of them used to be diplomat so yes, he has connections to the government. The other has no connections (that have been reported on at least). And where did you get "intelligence agencies" from!? Do you have a citation or did you just make that up? You know, like spreading FUD?

Other Michael is buddy-buddy with Kim Jong Un and operated NGO with North Korean dealings. Like when China retaliatory arrested Canadian Garrats who operated a Coffee shop in a prefecture level city on the border of China/North Korea in response to Canada extraditing a Chinese spy to US. No country is going to confirm their spies, but these are pretty obvious hints. Ex-diplomat/NGO is also typical spy cover in China - the country cracked down on foreign NGOs a few years ago with NGO laws packaged with counter-espionage and national security legislation. Both Michaels were also picked up by Ministry of State Security (national security), it was exceedingly clear messaging on day one, months before official chargers, that these two were picked up on espionage in retaliation. There's nothing particularly baffling that a surveillance state which compromised every CIA asset in country 10 years ago knows where foreign intelligence assets are. As someone who follows the space, Chinese retaliatory arrests are calibrated to separate diplomacy and commerce, hence arresting spies and (threatening to) execute drug dealers. Spies because historically spies have no rights, Michaels are fortunate that ICJ ruled spied get consular access last year, so there maybe some movement on that. Regardless, until they start detaining random expats there on business or travel, this is pretty much business as usual. That said, Canadian intelligence assets should GTFO out of the country, because if anything China has under-retaliated for Meng. They arrested 6 Japanese when Japan detained a Chinese fishboat captain over Senkaku. There will be more pressure coordinated with different phases of Meng's trial.

Re: US citizens warned they face arbitrary arrest in China

#252

Post by gentleman11 » Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 11:05 PM UTC

kortilla wrote: post #102

Aperocky wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Karm Gilespie, had been sentenced to death for attempting to smuggle 7.5kg of methamphetamine through a Chinese airport in December 2013. The death penalty threshold is 50 gram for methamphetamine in China, in absence of other 'good behavior' such as collaboration, etc. If any Chinese citizen attempted to smuggle this much drugs into China, it's going to be the same fate, except maybe faster. Drug dealers in China…

So the police can conveniently plant an amount of drugs that fits in their hands quickly into your pocket and you get the death penalty? Sounds like a super convenient way to kill off politically inconvenient people.

One interesting part is that, when the authorities lose the people’s trust, people can’t rely on what they say to be accurate and you end up second guessing everything they say or do. It’s actually an important Chinese (Confucian/daoist-sometimes) idea to emphasize the importance of legitimacy and that the working of society is relies on it

Re: US citizens warned they face arbitrary arrest in China

#253

Post by dirtyid » Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 11:26 PM UTC

JohnTHaller wrote: post #161

genoapol wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like what the US & Canada did to Meng Wanzhou.

Did you miss the part about holding innocent family members?

People who do not follow these developments as they happen will also miss that this state department release is one of John Bolton's pet projects. Most of US messaging on China under this administration should be taken with a grain of salt.

The two high profile cases that has any info, Sandra Han + Liu siblings (which triggered the warning), and Huang Wan, all has to do with father being caught with massive corruption charges in China and family members directly profited from i.e. Han + kids had multi-million dollar realestate holdings in the US under their names. Chinese corruption is typically a family affair. I haven't seen any cases that was unambiguous hostage taking.

The broader issue is many Chinese financial criminals flee to the west where they're safe from prosecution, the west benefits and extradition to PRC isn't on the table. So there's nothing China can do except to wait for the extra dumb one's to return or more commonly, or coerce those abroad to return by threatening innocent family members which to my knowledge has been limited to Chinese nationals. Exit bans seem to be reserved for those complicit in crimes. State department is reaching hard to to make it seem arbitrary when tldr is don't go to China if they want you for crimes, double for dissident activities.

Re: US citizens warned they face arbitrary arrest in China

#254

Post by pas » Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 11:51 PM UTC

Flowsion wrote: post #201

mthoms wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're missing the point. People are being accused for crimes they (more than likely) didn't commit and denied basic human rights. They face a 99% conviction rate in the Chinese courts. https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-china-charges-...

>For 2012, the US Department of Justice reported a 93% conviction rate. Japan also looks like it has a 99% conviction rate. Most countries have the ability to exit-ban foreigners visiting their country. It's not unique to China at all. US does it. Canada does it. South Korea does it. I think the warning from the US Government is that, in their opinion, China will illegally detain you over made up charges, be careful.

There are very serious problems with the Japanese justice system [too].

Re: US citizens warned they face arbitrary arrest in China

#255

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Jul 13, 2020, 12:36 AM UTC

TimTheTinker wrote: post #18

rorykoehler wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Posted 10 mins ago and already downvoted. Do HN not have algos to stop this astroturfing behaviour? It’s becoming very prevalent for anything that criticises the CCP.

Comments about voting are generally off-topic. Although if you have genuine concerns about astroturfing, I suggest emailing hn@ycombinator.com.

[deleted]

Re: US citizens warned they face arbitrary arrest in China

#256

Post by mthoms » Mon, Jul 13, 2020, 12:47 AM UTC

dirtyid wrote: post #251

mthoms wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>the 2 arrested clearly have links to the Canadian government and/or intelligence agencies. One of them used to be diplomat so yes, he has connections to the government. The other has no connections (that have been reported on at least). And where did you get "intelligence agencies" from!? Do you have a citation or did you just make that up? You know, like spreading FUD?

Other Michael is buddy-buddy with Kim Jong Un and operated NGO with North Korean dealings. Like when China retaliatory arrested Canadian Garrats who operated a Coffee shop in a prefecture level city on the border of China/North Korea in response to Canada extraditing a Chinese spy to US. No country is going to confirm their spies, but these are pretty obvious hints. Ex-diplomat/NGO is also typical spy cover in China…

For the most part I was unable to decipher your comment. At least insofar as to how it provides any evidence whatsoever that either of the men are spies.

All you seem to have said is that one of men is involved with North Korea (a close China ally, so I'm not sure how that supports your argument) and that "NGO is typical spy cover in China".

Hardly compelling.

Re: US citizens warned they face arbitrary arrest in China

#257

Post by poiuytrewqa » Mon, Jul 13, 2020, 1:40 AM UTC

TinkersW wrote: post #233

poiuytrewqa wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be honest, as European I think China and US are pretty similar in many ways (propaganda, law enforcement etc). So said each country has their own problem but if anybody focus more on resolving their internal problem before teaching everybody how to live would be better. In this forum is very hard to discuss anything serious that doesn't follow the prevalent opinion that you get down votes without reason.

You do understand that much of the news you read about the US is wildly exaggerated? Having traveled and met various young Europeans they were often suffering from amazingly ignorant ideas about life in the US(particularly the Germans). One couple was scared they might get shot while traveling along coastal California. Surprise, gun violence is not evenly distributed, most Americans don't encounter any gun violence.…

The same problem you're referring to is also true for news regarding China. Have you ever thought about it?

I've traveled for an extended time in both US and China and as you say you hardly get shot on a trip in California you also will not get arrested just for holding a foreign passport in Shanghai

As far I'm concerned I felt much safer in China for many reason that I'm not here to explain.

Re: US citizens warned they face arbitrary arrest in China

#258

Post by poiuytrewqa » Mon, Jul 13, 2020, 1:49 AM UTC

kolanos wrote: post #228

IllogicalLogic wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[dead]

The U.S. (1865) and Britain (1833) abolished slavery before China did. > Slavery in China has taken various forms throughout history. Slavery was abolished as a legally recognized institution, including in a 1909 law fully enacted in 1910, although the practice continued until at least 1949. Illegal acts of forced labor and sexual slavery in China continue to occur in the twenty-first century, but those found guilty…

I'd say we've to read both sides then.

> The practices of slavery and human trafficking are still prevalent in modern America with estimated 17,500 foreign nationals and 400,000 Americans being trafficked into and within the United States every year with 80% of those being women and children

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contemporary_slavery_in_the_Un...

Re: US citizens warned they face arbitrary arrest in China

#259

Post by calvinmorrison » Mon, Jul 13, 2020, 3:46 AM UTC

pas wrote: post #254

Flowsion wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>For 2012, the US Department of Justice reported a 93% conviction rate. Japan also looks like it has a 99% conviction rate. Most countries have the ability to exit-ban foreigners visiting their country. It's not unique to China at all. US does it. Canada does it. South Korea does it. I think the warning from the US Government is that, in their opinion, China will illegally detain you over made up charges, be careful.

There are very serious problems with the Japanese justice system [too].

'practices such as interrogating suspects without counsel or charge for up to 23 days'

Say what you want about Ghosn but, I'd GTFO too

Re: US citizens warned they face arbitrary arrest in China

#260

Post by dirtyid » Mon, Jul 13, 2020, 4:03 AM UTC

mthoms wrote: post #256

dirtyid wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Other Michael is buddy-buddy with Kim Jong Un and operated NGO with North Korean dealings. Like when China retaliatory arrested Canadian Garrats who operated a Coffee shop in a prefecture level city on the border of China/North Korea in response to Canada extraditing a Chinese spy to US. No country is going to confirm their spies, but these are pretty obvious hints. Ex-diplomat/NGO is also typical spy cover in China…

For the most part I was unable to decipher your comment. At least insofar as to how it provides any evidence whatsoever that either of the men are spies. All you seem to have said is that one of men is involved with North Korea (a close China ally, so I'm not sure how that supports your argument) and that "NGO is typical spy cover in China". Hardly compelling.

1. The Michael's fit the profile for spies that operate in China to a T. One Michael is ex-diplomat working at NGO, another works in NGO affiliated with NK and a source of NK information. Hint: Chinese officials with access to NK aren't the ones soliciting him for insights.

2. China has proven record to exposing spies domestically, seen in 2010 CIA debacle where every CIA asset in the country was compromised.

3. China doesn't detain expats arbitrarily. That's what western media tells their useful idiots to spread FUD. There are hundreds of thousands of expats in China, they don't need to waste time detaining innocent people. Just like how the drug dealer being executed has trafficking priors in Canada.

4. Ergo the Michael's were most likely spies, Chinese surveillance tech has only improved since.

Obviously, China is opaque on this issues so there won't be smoking gun proof. But people who watched this space for along time can connect the dots, and in fact did so immediately, before official charges were levied. One would need compelling evidence to demonstrate why they aren't spies, i.e. Canada doesn't spy on China or China doesn't have the capability to expose Canadian spies. But many people can't seem to accept China is a rational geopolitical actor who retaliated intelligently instead of randomly kidnap expats for shits and giggles.