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Police surveilled protests with help from Twitter-affiliated startup Dataminr

theintercept.com

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Re: Police surveilled protests with help from Twitter-affiliated startup Dataminr

#241

Post by slg »

Natsu wrote: post #240
slg wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Facts generally need context. Are these deaths actually linked to protesters? Are they motivated in some way by the protests or is the connection coincidental? How do these number of deaths compare to other protests? How do they compare to times when there are no protest? Questions like that need to be answered for the facts to have value. Most of us don't trust whatever context is given by a source like the one you…

> Are these deaths actually linked to protesters? Mostly they were done by looters, a few by police. That's all shown in the linked articles, which give names and dates and locations. > How do these number of deaths compare to other protests? You remember that Charleston protest? One death. Number of unarmed black people killed by police in 2019? Ten. That's eleven too many, of course, but you wanted context and thos…

What is the difference between a "looter" and a "robber"? You can't simply link every death that happens during this time frame to the protests and if you do, you need to compare it to similar deaths that happened at other times.

>I just feel that it's hard to justify it as worthwhile when people engage on a non-factual level.

Which brings me back to the first reply to you. You are asking people to click through at least 3 level of links before we get to a non-biased source that can provide facts. People aren't going to think that effort is worthwhile if the first page they land on is a site founded on spreading conspiracy theories.

Also I quickly googled Dorn and you are fudging the facts a little. He is a 77 year old retired police officer. His death had nothing to do with him being a police officer. He was working as a security guard when he was killed. Coincidentally police have also recently killed an on-duty security guard[1]. Mentioning one and not the other can be an indication of bias.

[1] - https://www.ajc.com/news/police-shoot-kill-year-old-hispanic...

Re: Police surveilled protests with help from Twitter-affiliated startup Dataminr

#242

Post by minerjoe »

darawk wrote: post #237
minerjoe wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I believe the burden of proof is on you to show credible non-governement evidence that the FBI has stopped just some of the numerous terrorist you are referring. Bring out FBI press-releases and the like and I'll just have to point you at the many FBI statements from the past that are now obviously blatent fabricated lies.

These are just isolated demands for rigor. I gave you a concrete list. You're welcome to dispute any of them on the actual facts. Until then, I think we're done here.

You gave me a press release from an organizaion that has a history of being deceptive. Why would I, or anybody, take it as a "concrete list?"

The thread of discussion here is that the FBI needs to have broad survaillance capabilities to catch crime before it occurs. The list you gave has verly little support for that in that almost all of the acts in the list were not stopped due to any survaillance, but rather invesigations after the fact. You could assert that they might have been stopped, but that is conjecture.

Re: Police surveilled protests with help from Twitter-affiliated startup Dataminr

#243

Post by Natsu »

slg wrote: post #241
Natsu wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are these deaths actually linked to protesters? Mostly they were done by looters, a few by police. That's all shown in the linked articles, which give names and dates and locations. > How do these number of deaths compare to other protests? You remember that Charleston protest? One death. Number of unarmed black people killed by police in 2019? Ten. That's eleven too many, of course, but you wanted context and thos…

What is the difference between a "looter" and a "robber"? You can't simply link every death that happens during this time frame to the protests and if you do, you need to compare it to similar deaths that happened at other times. >I just feel that it's hard to justify it as worthwhile when people engage on a non-factual level. Which brings me back to the first reply to you. You are asking people to click through at l…

Anyone can look and see the path of arson, robbery & destruction that is not a part of any normal crime pattern. When dozens of people rob & destroy a Wal-Mart, Target, etc. that's "looting" not mere robbery or such.

Insofar as you want to compare crime stats, CHAZ/CHOP is part of a huge % increase in crime. Even CHAZ "security" managed to shoot people.

I only said that Dorn was a cop, not that he was murdered for being a cop--you're putting words in my mouth. I believe I did mention that some of even the 17 had been shot by cops and there were more deaths after that.

I take making false claims about what I've said to be a red flag.

Re: Police surveilled protests with help from Twitter-affiliated startup Dataminr

#244

Post by slg »

Natsu wrote: post #243
slg wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is the difference between a "looter" and a "robber"? You can't simply link every death that happens during this time frame to the protests and if you do, you need to compare it to similar deaths that happened at other times. >I just feel that it's hard to justify it as worthwhile when people engage on a non-factual level. Which brings me back to the first reply to you. You are asking people to click through at l…

Anyone can look and see the path of arson, robbery & destruction that is not a part of any normal crime pattern. When dozens of people rob & destroy a Wal-Mart, Target, etc. that's "looting" not mere robbery or such. Insofar as you want to compare crime stats, CHAZ/CHOP is part of a huge % increase in crime. Even CHAZ "security" managed to shoot people. I only said that Dorn was a cop, not that he was murdered for be…

>Anyone can look and see the path of arson, robbery & destruction that is not a part of any normal crime pattern. When dozens of people rob & destroy a Wal-Mart, Target, etc. that's "looting" not mere robbery or such.

Once again more context you are expecting your reader to look up rather than have explained by an unbiased news source.

The question isn't whether looting happened. Of course it did. However there are also hundreds of thousands of robberies and millions of larcenies. Those don't just go away during times of civil unrest. How do you decide what is considered looting connected to the protests versus traditional robbery or larceny?

>I only said that Dorn was a cop,

Here is what you actually said:

>>David Dorn, a black cop murdered by looters

There was no past tense on being a cop there.

Re: Police surveilled protests with help from Twitter-affiliated startup Dataminr

#245

Post by nullc »

due737y3 wrote: post #129
nullc wrote: post #107

This kind of surveillance is not very effective for preventing or solving crimes. It is much more effective at making lists of people willing to lawfully and peacefully stand for the human rights or others, -- "potential subversives", as the parties monitoring might call them. Imagine, instead, if law enforcement were to stand outside of a marijuana-legalization rally and collect the sort of data effectively collecte…

I'm not sure the crime solving utility is wholly relevant here, police have other duties like maintaining public safety. The obvious utility seems to be monitoring different protest zones for signs that violence is beginning to break out. If x people are suddenly tweeting about a fire or gun shots near an active protest then you know it would probably be wise to at least send a scout over there to evaluate the situat…

> police have other duties like maintaining public safety

In the US it is not legally correct to claim that the police have any duty to provide any specific police service. (Warren v. District of Columbia)

But pedantry aside, they could monitor twitter and whatnot for violence outbreak without collecting any identifyable information.

Re: Police surveilled protests with help from Twitter-affiliated startup Dataminr

#246

Post by Natsu »

slg wrote: post #244
Natsu wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anyone can look and see the path of arson, robbery & destruction that is not a part of any normal crime pattern. When dozens of people rob & destroy a Wal-Mart, Target, etc. that's "looting" not mere robbery or such. Insofar as you want to compare crime stats, CHAZ/CHOP is part of a huge % increase in crime. Even CHAZ "security" managed to shoot people. I only said that Dorn was a cop, not that he was murdered for be…

>Anyone can look and see the path of arson, robbery & destruction that is not a part of any normal crime pattern. When dozens of people rob & destroy a Wal-Mart, Target, etc. that's "looting" not mere robbery or such. Once again more context you are expecting your reader to look up rather than have explained by an unbiased news source. The question isn't whether looting happened. Of course it did. However there are a…

> How do you decide what is considered looting connected to the protests versus traditional robbery or larceny?

There's a video of the people looting the store and several arrests were made. But you know that because you reviewed all that context, right?

> There was no past tense on being a cop there.

You do realize that I mentioned that he's dead, right?

But let's humor this for a moment... the fact that he was an old retired cop trying to keep his friend from losing his income and ending up in the proverbial poorhouse somehow makes his murder less awful to you?

Of course, that would only last until you found out about Sgt. Damon Gutzwiller or Dave Patrick Underwood, one assumes. Or will I hear more complaints if I neglect to mention that neither is black and the second is more of a security guard than a cop?

Re: Police surveilled protests with help from Twitter-affiliated startup Dataminr

#247

Post by refurb »

shpongled wrote: post #204
refurb wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does that jive with the overwhelming propensity for big government on HN? “I don’t want the gov’t to know I was at a protest, but I’m more than happy to give them all my medical data and work for a nationalized company.”

I think you're barking up the wrong tree here. A cursory glance over my comments would show that I don't have a desire for big government. I think we should immediately abolish the IRS, ATF, DEA, and NSA

My comment was not directed at you, but more broadly what I read on HN. There is a very strong anti-gov't stance when it comes to privacy and surveillance, but a very strong pro-government stance when it comes to solving issues like healthcare, capitalism, R&D, housing, food, etc.

I don't see how those two can jive.

Re: Police surveilled protests with help from Twitter-affiliated startup Dataminr

#248

Post by refurb »

ponker wrote: post #156
refurb wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

who are not suspected of committing a crime. How about people suspected of planning a crime? It would be really hard for cops to prevent crimes if they had to wait until after it was committed in order to surveil.

In general, cops directly prevent almost no crimes. Their job is basically to respond to crimes and either stop it in progress or find and punish the perpetrators. If they have a prevention effect it is from deterrence.

How many beat cops do you think have been patrolling at night and come across some shady character casing the neighborhood? I'd bet every single one except for maybe the cops in Malibu.

Regardless, there are cops whose jobs are to identify people who may be planning a crime. So my question stands - any concerns with surveilling those people?

Re: Police surveilled protests with help from Twitter-affiliated startup Dataminr

#249

Post by enilakla »

DoofusOfDeath wrote: post #20
davmar wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about you give us your best "for" argument?

Disclaimer: I don't have a settled opinion either for or against this surveillance. I really don't think I've heard all of the relevant facts or perspectives yet. The main "pro-surveillance" argument that comes to mind is that sometimes these protests devolve into illegal looting and destruction of private/public property. I think my ideal would be for police to have only the surveillance needed to prosecute those cr…

Funny thing is surveillance probably doesn't prevent looting and/or property damage, lol

Not arguing with your post, as you mention prosecution not prevention; I agree. Ultimately, we'll be trading more liberty for 'security' I imagine.

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