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Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

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Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#951

Post by somjeed »

m-p-3 wrote: post #937
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #715

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> First, you have to trust Apple that the indicator _really_ can't be disabled. You also have to trust that there isn't a vulnerability Apple is not aware about that could allow rolling the camera without the light coming on. I have made this point several times throughout this thread, so I apologize for repeating myself: Every laptop Apple has manufactured in the last ten years has an LED connected to the same circu…

Yet Dell and some other laptop manufacturers started to include a physical privacy slider right in the hardware. Considering Apple stance on privacy, I hope they consider this at some point.

Why not then put it on the iPhone too. Considering Apple's stance on aesthetics and non-moving parts, seems unlikely

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#952

Post by bloody-crow »

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #715
bloody-crow wrote: post #648

This statement has a number of issues. First, you have to trust Apple that the indicator _really_ can't be disabled. You also have to trust that there isn't a vulnerability Apple is not aware about that could allow rolling the camera without the light coming on. This has happened in the past [0] and there are known Apple products that are vulnerable, yet the statement never mentions this making you believe it's impos…

> First, you have to trust Apple that the indicator _really_ can't be disabled. You also have to trust that there isn't a vulnerability Apple is not aware about that could allow rolling the camera without the light coming on. I have made this point several times throughout this thread, so I apologize for repeating myself: Every laptop Apple has manufactured in the last ten years has an LED connected to the same circu…

> Every laptop Apple has manufactured in the last ten years has an LED connected to the same circuit which powers up the camera. You cannot send power to the camera without also sending power to the LED, which will in turn cause the LED to light up. Unless the LED is broken, in which case you will know because it will never light up.

In order to accept this argument I need to trust that you, an internet rando I know nothing about, are telling the truth AND that it'll remain so for any future Apple models. I think no matter how confident you're in your assessment of the current Apple hardware, you can't in good faith argue that they will not change course in the future for whatever reason.

Also, again, they already messed it up once in the past. It won't be hard to imagine that they will do it again some time in the future or already doing so.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#953

Post by bloody-crow »

bloody-crow wrote: post #648

This statement has a number of issues. First, you have to trust Apple that the indicator _really_ can't be disabled. You also have to trust that there isn't a vulnerability Apple is not aware about that could allow rolling the camera without the light coming on. This has happened in the past [0] and there are known Apple products that are vulnerable, yet the statement never mentions this making you believe it's impos…

I also thought about another point recently. Many companies hand out Apple laptops with pre-installed software to their employees. It's not entirely unrealistic to imagine that some of the pre-installed software is intended to spy on the employees to make sure they don't use company hardware to do anything weird and takes screenshots and camera shots occasionally.

In this kind of situations you'll see the LED and you'll know what's happening and you'd much prefer to have a physical cover on your webcam.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#954

Post by JMTQp8lwXL »

minerjoe wrote: post #928
JMTQp8lwXL wrote: post #913

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If someone isn't getting paid, what incentive do they have to patch vulnerabilities in a timely manner?

Not sure what you are asking? As far as I can tell, hackers hack like fish swim. We just do. For a multitude of reasons. For many people, me included, if you wanted to give me a bunch of money to do something and I bit, not that I would nowadays, that could actually lead to a loss of motivation. As for vulnerabilities, many open source projects responds to them much quicker that industry. Say for pride in their work.…

Pride can be fleeting. There's certainly advantages and disadvantages to depending on security patches from a paid organization and from volunteers. Regardless of which OS you use, you will need one that regularly patches its vulnerabilities.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#955

Post by jachee »

happytoexplain wrote: post #388
jachee wrote: post #295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As long as you maintain physical possession of your machine, point 3 is moot, at least on Macs.

I don't trust their implementation of a hardware link that is both reliable and truly un-exposed to software because I don't have the expertise or time to interpret their implementation, and even if I did, I don't trust that nothing about it will become vulnerable in any MacBook model going forward into the future. I don't think point 3 is moot in any practical sense.

The only way to physically get electricity to the camera unit, to be able to get any data from it is to pass that electricity through the indicator LED.

Multiple teardowns have confirmed that it's a hardware path that software cannot modify.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#956

Post by dabernathy89 »

floatingatoll wrote: post #696
dabernathy89 wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the one that destroyed the screen on my 16" MBP. 0.023 inches thick. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07C24NBGL/ref=cm_sw_r_sms_apa_i_T...

They indicated “no thicker than a sheet of paper” and that’s far thicker than a sheet of paper, and incompressible too.

This is new guidance, which I'm glad they issued. These kinds of covers worked on previous MBP models with no trouble, though.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#957

Post by dabernathy89 »

txcwpalpha wrote: post #368
dabernathy89 wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does not have to be a bulky cover. I used an extremely low profile webcam cover on my 2015 MBP for 3 years. I put a similar one on my 16" MBP, and it destroyed the screen after a couple weeks. Specifically, this is the webcam cover I was using: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07C24NBGL/ref=cm_sw_r_sms_apa_i_T...

I've been using this exact same cover on 3 different MBPs (yes I use 3 MBPs simultaneously, a 2016 13", a 2019 13", and 2019 15") for almost a year and haven't noticed anything even remotely close to it damaging the screen on any of them. I actually just tested it, and the cover doesn't even make contact with the lower half of the MacBook when closed. The cover fits into the trackpad area, which is recessed. I don't…

I used one on my 2015 MBP for years. It appears that the newer MBP models (and perhaps the Air as well) are built differently.

Also, to be fair, the webcam cover I used was metal (I didn't realize that when I bought it).

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#958

Post by dabernathy89 »

justinclift wrote: post #470
dabernathy89 wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the one that destroyed the screen on my 16" MBP. 0.023 inches thick. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07C24NBGL/ref=cm_sw_r_sms_apa_i_T...

Using something as hard as a metal for a screen cover like this seems to be asking for trouble?

It's explicitly advertised for that purpose ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#959

Post by dwaite »

chli wrote: post #730
pb7 wrote: post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You expect someone to take apart the fused display assembly and modify the intricate power pins to both the LED and camera while you’re having dinner? I hope you’re a billionaire with secrets because otherwise this is pure paranoia.

What about replacing the laptop and just cloning the content. I wouldn't notice.

The T2 chip in modern Macs is responsible for operating as the disk controller for the on-board flash, and encrypts the filesystem at rest.

You could copy some data over live, but there are also non-exportable cryptographic keys in the Secure Enclave.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#960

Post by yellowapple »

ColanR wrote: post #946
jorvi wrote: post #910

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So is trust. You can’t possibly audit the source of every piece of software that touches your life, even if all of it were open source. Hell, things like Heartbleed or Shellshock sat in OpenSSL / Bash for 5-10 years.

Heh. Heartbleed is my go-to example why we should be skeptical of the security of all software.

If you don't trust an open-source program due to the possibility of e.g. Heartbleed, then it's only reasonable to trust closed-source software (e.g. the majority of macOS, including in all likelihood the parts of it controlling the camera) even less.
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