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Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

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Re: Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

#251

Post by Tiktaalik »

dang wrote: post #250
Tiktaalik wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

cool well I hope China invades your country and puts you and your family in education camps since you seem to think this is cool and good and there's nothing wrong with this.

Flamewar comments like this will get you banned here regardless of how wrong another commenter is or you feel they are. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and sticking to the rules when posting here, we'd be grateful.

sure fine, but moderation pro tip please don't let psycho racism pass by because its dressed up in ~decorum~

Re: Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

#252

Post by dang »

Tiktaalik wrote: post #251
dang wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Flamewar comments like this will get you banned here regardless of how wrong another commenter is or you feel they are. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and sticking to the rules when posting here, we'd be grateful.

sure fine, but moderation pro tip please don't let psycho racism pass by because its dressed up in ~decorum~

I can't respond to this specifically unless you give specific links. Sometimes, there are extremely bad comments which we've missed—we don't come close to seeing everything that gets posted here (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...). Other times, though, people put extreme labels on comments they don't like, and basically want us to ban everyone they disagree with. Also, no matter where one draws the lines, there are borderline cases that require judgment calls and interpretation, making it impossible to please everyone.

We do not moderate Hacker News for "decorum".

Re: Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

#253

Post by faitswulff »

oh_sigh wrote: post #208
faitswulff wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the ones who "now are called indigenous" actually do exist and are alive, contrary to popular belief and government intervention. And the point is that they do not own their land, settlers do at the moment, and that indigenous folks have a claim preceding Western style land ownership.

But they just stole the land in a similar manner that Europeans stole the land from Natives. If someone steals your car, and then has that car stolen from them - it would be strange to set up a movement to have the car returned to the penultimate thief instead of the original owner.

Migration in prehistoric times does not equate to the well-documented genocide and theft by Europeans, and you're misapplying a principle in order to marginalize the rights of an oppressed peoples who are, as I mentioned earlier, still alive.

We do not return cars to dead people.

Re: Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

#254

Post by oh_sigh »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #234
oh_sigh wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So land ownership is bad, but granting exclusive use of land for a set period of time is okay? Who grants the exclusive use of land, and from what authority? If I'm not a part of that comuna, do I need to abide by the rules of who gets exclusive use of a given plot of land?

The model is that the community living there has sole authority and exclusive use of the land. If you're not part of the community, you don't have and can't obtain exclusive rights to the land. I can't speak to the original example of Ecuador, but this is how it works in American Samoa as well.

Right, so there is land ownership. One group of people (comune members) keep another group of people(non-comune members) off of their land by essentially a threat of violence. This seems not at all different from the system practiced in, say, the US.

Re: Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

#255

Post by oh_sigh »

faitswulff wrote: post #253
oh_sigh wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But they just stole the land in a similar manner that Europeans stole the land from Natives. If someone steals your car, and then has that car stolen from them - it would be strange to set up a movement to have the car returned to the penultimate thief instead of the original owner.

Migration in prehistoric times does not equate to the well-documented genocide and theft by Europeans, and you're misapplying a principle in order to marginalize the rights of an oppressed peoples who are, as I mentioned earlier, still alive. We do not return cars to dead people.

To Godwin this, imagine that Nazis succeeded in exterminating every Jew in the world. Would it then be acceptable for the Nazis to keep their gold/jewelry/art/etc?

If the answer is no, would the Nazis have the right to keep their gold/jewelry/art/etc if they waited a few hundred years until the world noticed that the Holocaust happened?

Re: Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

#256

Post by sershe »

Tiktaalik wrote: post #251
dang wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Flamewar comments like this will get you banned here regardless of how wrong another commenter is or you feel they are. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and sticking to the rules when posting here, we'd be grateful.

sure fine, but moderation pro tip please don't let psycho racism pass by because its dressed up in ~decorum~

How is what I said racism? It's maybe culturalism, and weak if that. It might have been very sad that Ottomans have once conquered Constantinople, or that Anglo-Saxons displaced Celts and were in turn conquered by the Normans, or that Romans or Arabs conquered Jerusalem and then later after a bunch of other people Israelis have (re-?)conquered it, or that China controls large parts of what was historically Mongolian land after the Mongols used to control a bunch of China, or whatever. The race has nothing to do with it. Wars used to be normal, and still are to an extent, however unfortunate that is. The fact that somebody conquered somebody 200 years ago and broke treaties has no bearing on anything whatsoever.

Or, if you think it does, it's YOUR job to articulate how, but in a manner than can be applied consistently in the general case, e.g. for the examples above.

That is what I asked about.

Re: Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

#257

Post by undersuit »

Acrobatic_Road wrote: post #117

Maps like these give the false impression that nearly every square mile of land - even inhospitable desert regions, were once occupied by some native polity. Reality check: Most indigenous peoples lived in Mesoamerica, with < 10 million in what is now USA/Canada and that's being generous. There are regions of North America today that have no residents. By what grounds are these native lands - because some nomads once…

Should we adjust our maps now too? There's an unused plot of land near my house. That's not the United States?

Re: Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

#258

Post by faitswulff »

oh_sigh wrote: post #255
faitswulff wrote: post #253

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Migration in prehistoric times does not equate to the well-documented genocide and theft by Europeans, and you're misapplying a principle in order to marginalize the rights of an oppressed peoples who are, as I mentioned earlier, still alive. We do not return cars to dead people.

To Godwin this, imagine that Nazis succeeded in exterminating every Jew in the world. Would it then be acceptable for the Nazis to keep their gold/jewelry/art/etc? If the answer is no, would the Nazis have the right to keep their gold/jewelry/art/etc if they waited a few hundred years until the world noticed that the Holocaust happened?

Bad example. Jewish people got Israel as a misbegotten reparation. Indigenous people who are again still alive and deserve reparations are getting their rights and treaties trampled instead. Their claim to the land is not a thought experiment.

Re: Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

#259

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

oh_sigh wrote: post #254
SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The model is that the community living there has sole authority and exclusive use of the land. If you're not part of the community, you don't have and can't obtain exclusive rights to the land. I can't speak to the original example of Ecuador, but this is how it works in American Samoa as well.

Right, so there is land ownership. One group of people (comune members) keep another group of people(non-comune members) off of their land by essentially a threat of violence. This seems not at all different from the system practiced in, say, the US.

The difference is that it's seen as an inherent right of the community, not a title that can be freely transferred to the highest bidder.

Re: Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

#260

Post by seebetter »

minerjoe wrote: post #91
seebetter wrote: post #13

[flagged]

> "an incredibly fair system" I almost fell out of my chair laughing.

Name another country that's built better systems.

Of course, LIFE isn't fair. But be careful tearing down classical liberalism hoping that some centralized authority will dictate the perfect expression of how a human being should exist.

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