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Microsoft and Google collaborate to make PWAs better

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Re: Microsoft and Google collaborate to make PWAs better

#131

Post by millstone »

lern_too_spel wrote: post #125
millstone wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a bad-faith distraction from the topic at hand. The privacy work that Apple has done on the web is real and significant. We know because ad pricing for Safari users has dropped 60%, while for Chrome users it's increased. That means tracking is working on Chrome and not Safari.

GGP was talking about iOS devices specifically, and I showed how they are worse for privacy than their alternatives due to long-standing and long-complained-about practices by Apple. Do you disagree? You have not given any reason why anybody should. As far as ad prices, you are citing a report from 2019. Since then, Safari ITP has been thoroughly compromised to the point where it leaks more information when it's on t…

The report is from December 2019, it has relevance in July 2020. Android Chrome does not support uBlock Origin. Mobile Safari prevents more tracking than Chrome, which is reflected in the lower ad prices. "Safari ITP is compromised" is a lie.

Re: Microsoft and Google collaborate to make PWAs better

#132

Post by mihaela »

Abishek_Muthian wrote: post #113
millstone wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple is making the right decision here. My iOS device has never once shown me "this website requires Chrome." I get to use the mobile web without needing Google. And Apple is the only reason why. Maybe some day, web apps will become so undeniably awesome that Safari's position is untenable. But the agitation is not coming from iOS users missing out on awesome PWAs. Instead it's web developers, who are just annoyed t…

>My iOS device has never once shown me "this website requires Chrome." Why would any PWA say that, if Safari had proper support for PWA? >Instead it's web developers, who are just annoyed that they have to actually respect the conventions of the platform they're building for. Say the developer is from a village in India or Nigeria who has just a Raspberry Pi to develop apps - •What if the developer didn't have thousa…

This argument is a great example of straw man. Or, a translation, this argument is BS.

Re: Microsoft and Google collaborate to make PWAs better

#133

Post by ex3ndr »

spideymans wrote: post #126
millstone wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple is making the right decision here. My iOS device has never once shown me "this website requires Chrome." I get to use the mobile web without needing Google. And Apple is the only reason why. Maybe some day, web apps will become so undeniably awesome that Safari's position is untenable. But the agitation is not coming from iOS users missing out on awesome PWAs. Instead it's web developers, who are just annoyed t…

I couldn’t agree more. As a developer, PWAs are amazing. Write once, run more or less everywhere. Our enterprise software deployments wouldn’t have been possible if we had to target iOS, Android and Windows specifically. As an end user, I dread the days PWAs ever go mainstream. They’re horribly inefficient from a power and performance point of view, and never have I come across a PWA with a user experience half as go…

What's the problem with enterprise deployments?

Re: Microsoft and Google collaborate to make PWAs better

#134

Post by mihaela »

osrec wrote: post #66
alwillis wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this regard, Apple reminds me of a cult leader brainwashing their followers into believing the cult's way is the best way. Makes me a little sick actually. Are you sure you aren’t the one being brainwashed? Why should anyone trust Google, since they make virtually all of their revenue from ad tech, which means tracking users across the web, even when they don't want to be. Advertisers are Google's customers, not t…

Oh man, not sure where to begin with responding to this. I'm not saying Google is incredible (my opinion is quite the contrary actually). However, I am saying Apple is holding the web back, in a fairly annoying way, for developers. The fact that they are a rich corporate does not mean they always will be, or that they're conducting their business in the best way possible. There are plenty of examples of rich tech bus…

"Apple is holding the web back"

Nope, Apple is taking care of it's customers and protecting them from Google's ad exploitation.

"I feel it may be a similar fate for Apple, and for similar reasons, unless they change their attitude towards the web"

On the contrary, if Apple allowed this web Wild West that Google is advocating, then the users would have incentive to switch. This move from Apple actually ensures that things run smoothly on Apple devices.

It is not about "power for web developers", it is web developers being lazy to self-educate and learn other stacks.

There is skill called "desktop development" and it does not entail Electron.

Luckily Apple is not gonna let that happen with the mobile apps and the PWA.

Re: Microsoft and Google collaborate to make PWAs better

#135

Post by Abishek_Muthian »

millstone wrote: post #127
Abishek_Muthian wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>My iOS device has never once shown me "this website requires Chrome." Why would any PWA say that, if Safari had proper support for PWA? >Instead it's web developers, who are just annoyed that they have to actually respect the conventions of the platform they're building for. Say the developer is from a village in India or Nigeria who has just a Raspberry Pi to develop apps - •What if the developer didn't have thousa…

> Why would any PWA say that, if Safari had proper support for PWA? For the same reason that far too many desktop websites say that today. > Say the developer is from a village in India or Nigeria who has just a Raspberry Pi to develop apps Apple is not catering to this developer demographic. > For all the times Apple uses 'Equality' in its marketing, the Apple platform & ecosystem restrictions clearly seems to be ai…

Parent said it's the web developers who argue for PWA, I just stated why they have reasons to do that.

Re: Microsoft and Google collaborate to make PWAs better

#136

Post by millstone »

rchaud wrote: post #107
zelly wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

PWAs would be very off brand for iOS. It would allow all kinds of spammy low-quality apps to masquerade as iOS apps without any vetting from Apple. Part of Apple's success is their extreme stubbornness. They decide something and make zero compromises. The consumer tech industry is forced to fall in line with whatever they want; they have final veto power over all new consumer tech basically.

You describe the iOS app store as some kind of zen garden of curated software, when it's full off the same kind of spammy apps that pollute other app stores. When the app inventory numbers in the million plus, it is impossible for every one to be reviewed for quality, or to be distinct from others already in the store. The purpose of the App Store was to ensure that Apple got a cut of every dollar flowing through the…

> You describe the iOS app store as some kind of zen garden of curated software, when it's full off the same kind of spammy apps that pollute other app stores

Yeah, it's disgusting.

> The purpose of the App Store was to ensure that Apple got a cut of every dollar flowing through the store

I think there were competing internal forces: a desire to milk the iPhone's success, vs something akin to an Apple retail store experience. Sadly they gave us the worst of both worlds: they freely admit shit, yet pick fights with good stuff, like Basecamp Hey mail.

It makes no sense why Apple would choose to defend this hill. Either make it a Zen garden or turn it to a web-style free-for-all.

Re: Microsoft and Google collaborate to make PWAs better

#137

Post by entha_saava »

pjmlp wrote: post #121
satvikpendem wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps, but WASM isn't ready yet.

Looks ready to me. https://platform.uno/ https://dotnet.microsoft.com/apps/aspnet/web-apps/blazor https://www.qt.io/qt-examples-for-webassembly https://fsbolero.io/ https://tinygo.org/webassembly/webassembly/ https://leaningtech.com/pages/cheerp.html https://leaningtech.com/pages/cheerpj.html https://leaningtech.com/pages/cheerpx.html

Off topic; I would like to know your news sources.

Re: Microsoft and Google collaborate to make PWAs better

#138

Post by pjmlp »

entha_saava wrote: post #137
pjmlp wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looks ready to me. https://platform.uno/ https://dotnet.microsoft.com/apps/aspnet/web-apps/blazor https://www.qt.io/qt-examples-for-webassembly https://fsbolero.io/ https://tinygo.org/webassembly/webassembly/ https://leaningtech.com/pages/cheerp.html https://leaningtech.com/pages/cheerpj.html https://leaningtech.com/pages/cheerpx.html

Off topic; I would like to know your news sources.

Reading conference papers, podcasts and watching talks, even from tech I don't use instead of boring TV shows.

Then just collect the references from them. :)

Re: Microsoft and Google collaborate to make PWAs better

#139

Post by osrec »

mihaela wrote: post #134
osrec wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh man, not sure where to begin with responding to this. I'm not saying Google is incredible (my opinion is quite the contrary actually). However, I am saying Apple is holding the web back, in a fairly annoying way, for developers. The fact that they are a rich corporate does not mean they always will be, or that they're conducting their business in the best way possible. There are plenty of examples of rich tech bus…

"Apple is holding the web back" Nope, Apple is taking care of it's customers and protecting them from Google's ad exploitation. "I feel it may be a similar fate for Apple, and for similar reasons, unless they change their attitude towards the web" On the contrary, if Apple allowed this web Wild West that Google is advocating, then the users would have incentive to switch. This move from Apple actually ensures that th…

But Apple's app store is full of junk too - it is a veritable wild west in its own right.

You have the likes of Tiktok on there, collecting way more data than a PWA ever could. Do Apple not care about that?

Feels like a bit of a double standard on privacy, explicitly aimed at stifling the web.

Re: Microsoft and Google collaborate to make PWAs better

#140

Post by millstone »

Abishek_Muthian wrote: post #135
millstone wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why would any PWA say that, if Safari had proper support for PWA? For the same reason that far too many desktop websites say that today. > Say the developer is from a village in India or Nigeria who has just a Raspberry Pi to develop apps Apple is not catering to this developer demographic. > For all the times Apple uses 'Equality' in its marketing, the Apple platform & ecosystem restrictions clearly seems to be ai…

Parent said it's the web developers who argue for PWA, I just stated why they have reasons to do that.

Yeah, agreed. The web is now the most developer-friendly platform by far.
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