Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera • Hacker News Board

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#571

Post by coolspot » Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 1:35 AM UTC

hoka-one-one wrote: post #563

rgbrenner wrote: post #436

As an alternative to a camera cover, use the camera indicator light to determine if your camera is active I've been thinking about privacy all wrong. I thought it was about preventing access to my data... but Apple has cleared up my misunderstanding and now I know that it's just about being notified when my data is stolen. Everyone feel free to post your credit card numbers... your privacy is secure, since your bank…

Actually it would be a huge security risk if everyone posted their CC numbers publicly. Attackers could use their numbers to make purchases, and by the time the purchases show up on the statement the money is already gone.

Banks don’t transfer money to CC merchants immediately - it happens later after the hold period is passed.

Also transaction can be reversed via chargeback.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#572

Post by soonoutoftime » Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 1:36 AM UTC

dividedbyzero wrote: post #116

dathinab wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't matter. For many people the trust in integrated laptop cameras has been thoroughly eroded especially in case of Macs. (From my experience by interacting with people not having much tech experience, limited to Germany, maybe also limited to the social cycle(s) I interacted with.) The paradox thing is that the same people who often don't trust webcams in Apple Laptops or Apple All-In-One PCs do not bother or ev…

Maybe that's misguided and naive, but I pretty much trust my phone to protect me from bad actors taking over the camera; I'll have to trust the apps I use that have camera access to not spy on me, but those are few. Until relatively recently, any userspace app on my computer could freely access the camera and microphone, including background processes and malware, so that feels a lot riskier. There seems to be a perm…

There will always potentially be bugs. From only three months ago and featured on HN at the time: https://www.wired.com/story/hacker-apple-safari-webcam-bug/

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#573

Post by saagarjha » Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 1:37 AM UTC

moe wrote: post #551

axoltl wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hi! I was the security architect for this feature on recent Macs. The LED is wired to the camera PMIC and is powered by the voltage rail that powers the camera. The PMIC will always remain on if the system has power. Macs newer than 4 or so years also have a feature that forces the LED to stay lit for at least 3 seconds after it has been turned on to prevent the single-frame-grab attack.

Out of curiosity... Do the doors at Apple HQ have locks? Or is there just a little LED next to them that lights up when they open?

There is a little LED that lights up when they open. The door latch is controlled via software and so is the light, though I would assume in the case of power failure they'd unlock for fire safety reasons.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#574

Post by hanniabu » Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 1:37 AM UTC

pkage wrote: post #325

hanniabu wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mic-Lock: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07KRC3G7R/

That's incredibly overpriced at $26.99 for what is essentially just a dummy input...

From my understanding it's not just a dummy input and somehow adds noise because some computers won't pick up the input unless there's a signal.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#575

Post by dahfizz » Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 1:38 AM UTC

mirimir wrote: post #538

rgbrenner wrote: post #436

As an alternative to a camera cover, use the camera indicator light to determine if your camera is active I've been thinking about privacy all wrong. I thought it was about preventing access to my data... but Apple has cleared up my misunderstanding and now I know that it's just about being notified when my data is stolen. Everyone feel free to post your credit card numbers... your privacy is secure, since your bank…

If Apple makes such high-end stuff, and is marketing on privacy, why can't they spring for hardware switches? Pine64 does, and they're by no means high-end. Not by price, anyway.

Better yet, Lenovo has a little plastic cover built into the camera under the lens.

I don't need to trust the implementation of some switch, I can physically cover up the camera with a nicely integrated cover. No trust required for about 0.01¢ of plastic.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#576

Post by hpen » Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 1:38 AM UTC

airstrike wrote: post #494

coldtea wrote: post #491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or you know, if you never see a green light, you never had any problem. How about that? Tin foil much?

Unless the LED somehow gets disabled, stops working, or something like it. It's not like the tape is ineffective, so why does Apple care if people use it?

Apple hardwired the LED to the camera. It can't be disabled.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#577

Post by saagarjha » Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 1:39 AM UTC

dasudasu wrote: post #296

mthoms wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't "have to" do anything. The point is that the hardware has been designed properly. Combined with the OS-level permissions, it should be assurance enough for the majority of use cases. If you need further assurances, then by all means, use a physical cover.

The claim was that single-frame grab attempts are prevented by an indicator that stays on for 3 seconds. First, you do have to be alert for all of these potential 3 seconds windows, and second, it doesn't prevent anything but only tell you that it has already happened.

No, it wasn't. The claim was whether it was implemented correctly, as the entire conversation started with examples where it was not implemented correctly.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#578

Post by dng88 » Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 1:39 AM UTC

neltnerb wrote: post #463

roenxi wrote: post #438

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I expect you are probably correct, but it doesn't really matter. If you don't want to be filmed, the correct engineering approach is not to have a camera pointed at you 24/7. It is a bit like the gun rule of not pointing a gun at things you don't want to shoot - sure, the trigger should be enough of a control, but accidents happen. If you spend your entire life with a camera pointed at your face, your face (and activ…

Indeed, I'm a little surprised Apple didn't follow the Thinkpad approach of simply having a sliding piece with an aperture that extremely obviously blocks the camera. Surely Apple can't seriously think their users would be confused by this and complain... I don't think my desktop computer's webcam is likely to get hacked either but I'm still going to unplug it when I'm not using it. Complex systems are hard to secure…

It is the mentality not the thinking. In china no one trust anyone really. Hence security strangely is no 1 priority. Hence the cover is in Lenovo portable, but not apple. You are guilty somehow somewhere and to be checked out, and vice visa.

Like fish said to be the final species to discover water, one mainlander comes to hk and surprise to see us so relax about security. What the law even assume people are innocent until proved otherwise ...

the mentality of hermit in One of the largest population of ... hermits. You just put on your shell.

As now become one of the hermit by force and talked as a hermit, may I suggest they just do it away with the camera. Use a wireless or usb based one. No hacking possible.

Economically (if not ethnically) trust is important as it lower the transaction costs. Chicago school heritage I guess of pre NSO HONG Kong. I switch to my two mac Mini of intel and arm. Unfortunately still have the old 3 cable apple monitor (work well with both 2018 and 2012 MacBook Pro) that have a camera. Guess a cover is ok.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#579

Post by dzhiurgis » Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 1:39 AM UTC

soulofmischief wrote: post #476

dzhiurgis wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d be more embarrassed being seen wearing a camera cover

Are you similarly embarrassed when you close your blinds at night?

I use curtains, but only to isolate the light in the morning.

This is a tech forum. I'm much more embarrassed not being able to use Zoom for the first time, rather than a distributed team see me laying on a couch for a brief moment.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#580

Post by apecat » Sat, Jul 11, 2020, 1:40 AM UTC

Wingman4l7 wrote: post #366

apecat wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Recent Apple laptops have a separate SoC dedicated to secure boot as well as making sure macOS has no direct control over that camera indicator light, and more https://appleinsider.com/articles/19/07/29/what-apples-t2-ch... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Silicon#T_series

The handy-dandy T2 also helps to soft-brick laptops, destroying that pesky second-hand market! Poor Apple had already destroyed that for iPhones and iPads but just couldn't do it for their laptops, until now ! https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/akw558/apples-t2-security...

In terms of giving some kind of supply chain assurance it's not a bad idea by itself. I'd prefer a non-bricking variant with a red boot screen warning about non-original spare parts, or something to that effect.