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Blog Anonymously

uglyduck.ca

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Re: Blog Anonymously

#401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See my response to you here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23796317

I certainly don't favor mob rule. And I don't agree that cancellation and mob rule are in any way comparable. If you want to make claims like that, much like your claims that "cancellation is authoritarianism", you're going to need to support them. Large groups of people taking action you dislike isn't mob rule. Mob rule is characterized by violence. Is large groups of people expressing their disagreement with you vi…

The problem with mobs is distinctly not that they don't attack the "right" races (or whatever else you might've meant by 'minority'). Perhaps our disagreement is representative of a broader disagreement between (philosophical) liberals and progressives, in which case this might be enlightening. In any case, the reason societies for thousands of years have evolved away from mob rule and toward rule of law isn't that mobs endanger minorities, but rather that mobs are happy to extract their vengeance on anyone who is a suitable token irrespective of whether or not that individual or group has done anything wrong. Mobs also lack any sense of proportionality in their "sentencing"--it's always as severe as the mob can get away with. Further, mob rule always results in multiple mobs exacting ever-escalating vengeance on the other group or groups.

> Again, you're welcome to actually support that assertion, but drawing the metaphor without backing it up appears to be more of a veiled attack at my morals than any attempt to discuss the merits (or lack thereof) of these movements.

I mean, it really sounded like that's where you were going. Even now it sounds like you only disagree on the issue of violence, but that harm to one's livelihood and psychological well-being are all well and good. I'm happy that you draw the line somewhere before violence, but I would take more comfort knowing that you took issue with the "mobs are terrible at justice and always end up perpetrating more injustice" aspect.

Lastly, I invite you to have some empathy for the people who are being targeted, even if only for those who aren't powerful. Imagine if you felt as though the prevailing public debate was avoiding obvious questions or being framed in a very limited scope that disenfranchised you and people like you; imagine that you wanted to raise those questions, but were told your views had been determined in advance to be racist and hateful (and then being told to go read a book which purports to "take down" your views, but really only takes down a straw man). Imagine going so far out of your way to avoid offending anyone in a social media post, but a colleague gets whiff of it and begins a campaign to ruin your reputation in the company and the broader industry--you know you'll bounce back, but the sheer trauma of being targeted by strangers and acquaintances, to have work friends avoid you for their own personal preservation. You rationalize with yourself that you'll bounce back economically, but you're just so shaken to think that there are people out there who don't know you but have such an intense hatred that they'll spend their time and resources to ruin your reputation. Now imagine the same thing except you don't make a cushy 6-figure salary at an in-demand job and you have a family to feed and clothe.

Cancel culture isn't a theoretical debate for some people; it's a reality. Consider those people when you're tempted to tell yourself that it's just the rich and powerful who are affected.

Re: Blog Anonymously

#402
post #144
post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And who shall be the judge of what is right and what is wrong? An internet mob? If an unknown woman issues a public twitter statement that she's been abused, is it OK to get the alleged offender cancelled before a court trial? What if they are innocent? How do you un-cancel somebody? You don't. That's why the cancel culture is ridiculous and needs to end.

So do you have an example of someone being accused by one anonymous twitter user of sexual assault and subsequently had their career and life ruined?

How about a truck driver that was accused of racism by a Twitter rando and was quickly fired from his job?

https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/local/sdge-worker-fired-ove...

Re: Blog Anonymously

#403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See my response to you here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23796317

I certainly don't favor mob rule. And I don't agree that cancellation and mob rule are in any way comparable. If you want to make claims like that, much like your claims that "cancellation is authoritarianism", you're going to need to support them. Large groups of people taking action you dislike isn't mob rule. Mob rule is characterized by violence. Is large groups of people expressing their disagreement with you vi…

If you had to, would you be able to enumerate similarities between the mob rule and the cancel culture rule?

Re: Blog Anonymously

#404
post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are those list items really that bad, though? Paraphrasing #4: you're saying that we need to welcome, broadcast and hire people who we genuinely think are vile and awful? Where's the middle ground. If we can't fire, say, violent racists, and we can't escape their words, and we can't avoid them socially, what can we do? I think the answer to that, if you look at it carefully, is going to be pretty much isomorphic to w…

The definition of vile is getting ridiculous. Today its seems anyone is a "violent racist" if they don't agree 100% with BLM's mission statement. I'm sorry, you have to live in a world where there are people who have different opinions.

And Right On Cue, here's a great counter example: https://www.cnn.com/2020/07/10/media/tucker-carlson-writer-b...

Read that, and you tell me: was Blake Neff canceled? Sure seems like it. Mainstream journalists found "vile" material in his online history, showed it to his employer, he's canned (well, resigned it seems like, technically).

So are you going to defend Neff? Please do. Or if you won't, please tell me why your carefully curated worries about "cancel culture" somehow don't apply to this case.

Because I can tell you why: because "vile".

So now tell me why your personal, entirely subjective definition of "vile" is more important that those of other people with different priorities. Because that's the only difference here.

Re: Blog Anonymously

#405
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We really, really aren't. Which rock have you been under? In the last year I've seen 3 collegues fired and 2 have to issue public apologies on twitter. For publically supporting trump. Which then got turned into "I dont feel safe working with this person." This is all pushed by the stasi level initiatives that comes out of our D&I team. Its hell to work under but I dont feel like chucking my career over it.

Do you think that political engagement is a game with no consequences, or do you think that there is a point where it would be reasonable to feel unsafe around someone with particular political views?

I feel far more unsafe around the woke left than I do around supporters of a bumbling idiot.

Re: Blog Anonymously

#406
post #257

I have often considered blogging anonymously because I do not feel free to write my nuanced philosophical views about the world anymore, as nuance is mostly dead in the public discourse and anything I write could easily offend someone and cause me problems. But I decided that if I believed something and I was willing to say it aloud, I should be willing to write it down with my name attached. In the end, it has had t…

There is a good video that underlines your second point[0], specifically mentioning that compassion is increasingly being replaced by moral superiority, that dialogue is often reactionary instead of responsive, and that the system we live in is often trying to group us based on these very differences, not unlike what happens in a high school cafeteria. She's primarily talking about online and big media discussions I…

Thank you for your comment and those videos. They were extremely enriching.

Re: Blog Anonymously

#407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your "political engagement" is slandering someone to their employer with the express goal of having them terminated, then I think that should come with consequences. But I wouldn't materially punish someone for simply having these kinds of abhorrent beliefs. In other words, if you believe it's okay to harass people for wrongthink you shouldn't be punished, but if you actually do harass people for wrongthink, you s…

Clearly I need to spell this out more clearly. Do you believe that support of Trump should be without consequences? I don't have the details of the three cases discussed above, but the lack of detail is exactly the problem: It paints politics as a game that we can supposedly play with no real-world results. I object to that framing (as well as the framing that any degree of "support" for a candidate is equally damnin…

> Do you believe that support of Trump should be without consequences?

Yes.

You do realise your position violates multiple UN human rights?

Take a read through the lot of them. Please.

https://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/

People have died to maintain these rights. Please stop trying to tear them down. You're not woke. You're asleep.

Re: Blog Anonymously

#408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In what sense do you mean they "work"? They reduce the ability of extremists to radicalize young people, for example. On a platform level, banning certain actors makes my life better because less fake news will show up in my feed. ETA: It also denies people some amount of income in many cases, now that platforms are often monetized. > One could say the same about the fetishism of "safety". Yes, you could. But I bel…

> They reduce the ability of extremists to radicalize young people, for example. Hm... I'm not going to say the problem of radicalization isn't real, it most certainly is, but I think we need to have a clear definition of what qualifies as radicalization. > On a platform level, banning certain actors makes my life better because less fake news will show up in my feed. That's a problem of filtering tools and suggestio…

> Hm... I'm not going to say the problem of radicalization isn't real, it most certainly is, but I think we need to have a clear definition of what qualifies as radicalization.

Goodluck with that, the only side radicalizing anyone right now is the left.

Re: Blog Anonymously

#409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of those, the last three didn't suffer any long term consequences (all three were employed relatively soon after they were fired), and the first happened too recently to really analyze.

I never understand these kinds of arguments. Is the idea that "because there are still enough good and decent people resisting the mob in order to prevent long term consequences for their targets that we should not condemn this mobbing at all"? What point are you making?

> What point are you making?

Presumably something to the effect of "It can't [currently] be a especially horrible problem if all the listed consequences were quickly fixed.". On the other hand, see (https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2278).

Re: Blog Anonymously

#410

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do I think it is reasonable to feel unsafe around someone just for supporting the candidate that 63 million people supported in the last election? No, no I don't.

Nope, but I believe there are a lot of horrid people who supported Trump. Providing these three supposed anecdotes serves only to muddy the conversation and peddle the "cancel culture" myth. Do people get fired for stupid reasons? Of course. Some of them even get fired because of stupid reasons that Twitter dug up. But that's a problem with labor rights, not a cultural shift.

What horrid people? Why do you believe this? They got manipulated by facebook ads.

Cancel culture is a myth? Are you following the news at all?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8506215/

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