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Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

support.apple.com

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Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#381

Post by soulofmischief »

valuearb wrote: post #351
soulofmischief wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's circular logic. People forget simply because camera covers are not common enough, so it's not a valid argument for why they shouldn't be more common.

People forget because you have to train yourself to remember, and outside of intelligence agency personnel, no one is doing that. Camera covers are just another example of security for show. Having a camera cover on a pc without a hard wired camera indicator like Macs have means you will never know how many of those times you were filmed after forgetting to slide your camera cover over.

People forget because you have to train yourself to remember, and outside of intelligence agency personnel, no one is doing that

I'm sorry, do you mean to say that only intelligence agency personnel are capable of remembering a simple habit such as sliding a camera cover? Not too long ago we were all using flip phones, many with extendable antennas, and no one was having trouble remembering to flip open their phone and extend the antenna before using it.

And as the sister comment said, no one suggested removing the LED indicator.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#383

Post by mekkkkkk »

ryandrake wrote: post #259
sli wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A hardware switch should in theory be more easily verifiable than a software one through physical testing. Running tests on PCB traces to verify that a switch indeed works is probably a whole lot easier in general practice than decapping chips or decompiling and analyzing low level firmware or low level OS components.

But are you going to run those tests on PCB traces on your own hardware ? If not, then you have to trust that your hardware is identical to whatever hardware was torn-down and tested. I suppose this is good enough unless your threat model includes someone swapping your computer enroute to you with a modified one.

But even then, are you sure the computer whose PCB you tested hasn't been swapped or modified since then? That Chinese operatives didn't splinter cell it while you were out grocery shopping?

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#384

Post by stevenwliao »

valuearb wrote: post #351
soulofmischief wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's circular logic. People forget simply because camera covers are not common enough, so it's not a valid argument for why they shouldn't be more common.

People forget because you have to train yourself to remember, and outside of intelligence agency personnel, no one is doing that. Camera covers are just another example of security for show. Having a camera cover on a pc without a hard wired camera indicator like Macs have means you will never know how many of those times you were filmed after forgetting to slide your camera cover over.

You can have both the light and cover.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#385

Post by 1123581321 »

robotcookies wrote: post #342
Wowfunhappy wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's connected to the damn circuit! You can't power up the webcam without powering up the light any more than you can make the camera see through a piece of electrical tape.

There could still be a circuit in the light that could pass the current without lighting up. Or even if there was no such thing, it could be added in the future after everyone was shamed into believing you are a fool for putting tape over your camera. There are probably other ways. Stop trying to shame people just because you haven't thought of a way to bypass this.

Neither of those things is the case. You can’t power the camera circuit without passing through the low power light. We can rely on the diligent work of security researchers to attempt bypasses and do teardowns for us, so the risk of Apple compromising an older model only exists for people who buy immediately on release.

The support document also suggests a paper-thin cover, so it’s not attempting to shame anyone.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#386

Post by Godel_unicode »

alunchbox wrote: post #185
NovemberWhiskey wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>2013: iSeeYou: Disabling the MacBook Webcam Indicator LED https://jscholarship.library.jhu.edu/handle/1774.2/36569 ... applies only to older Mac notebooks from like 2008 period which are long since obsolete according to Apple's announced support policy. >2016: Your Mac’s Camera Can Be Hacked https://www.intego.com/mac-security-blog/your-macs-camera-ca... . ... refers specifically the exploit above. >2016: Former NSA…

There's a reason Zukerberg's laptop has its mic and camera tapped up. It doesn't matter what device you use unless there's a physical switch to disconnect it'll never be safe. Software can ALWAYS have zero days, just because it hasn't been exploited yet doesn't mean it can't be.

There are also doctors who are anti-vaccine, financial planners who don't max out 401ks, sysadmins with unpatched home systems, etc. Just because someone could possibly know that the thing they're doing is illogical doesn't mean they act on that knowledge.

> There's a reason Zukerberg's laptop has its mic and camera tapped up

This is an incredibly weakly phrased argument; there's a reason people are flat-earthers as well. The existence of a reason does not automatically make that reason a good one.

I actually take his webcam tape to mean that his security group (which includes people who have serious hardware chops) doesn't think that the investment in a better option is worth it.

Lastly, about that 0day argument. Many camera LEDs are implemented in hardware, which means instead of hardware prevention they have hardware detection. There are reasons for both, and neither is unambiguously better.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#388

Post by happytoexplain »

jachee wrote: post #295
happytoexplain wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly this. I use one for these reasons, in descending order of practical concern: 1. I don't want to broadcast myself during a meeting when I'm not prepared, or perhaps leave a meeting open by accident. 2. If a bad actor does access my camera, I won't necessarily notice the indicator light, especially if I'm not actively using the computer at that moment. 3. I don't trust the indicator light to be permanently unha…

As long as you maintain physical possession of your machine, point 3 is moot, at least on Macs.

I don't trust their implementation of a hardware link that is both reliable and truly un-exposed to software because I don't have the expertise or time to interpret their implementation, and even if I did, I don't trust that nothing about it will become vulnerable in any MacBook model going forward into the future. I don't think point 3 is moot in any practical sense.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#389

Post by abstrakraft »

valuearb wrote: post #287
livre wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Designed to protect your privacy, Mac notebooks have a camera indicator light to let you know when the camera is on. ... The main problem with that isn't that it is possible to disable the LED. The problem is that the LED is like a smoke detector, when it alerts you it's already too late, you are on fire (or your photo/video has already been taken). An indicator LED doesn't protect your privacy, it only tells you w…

On new Macs the light is a minimum 3 seconds even for a single frame photo. Anyone monitoring you has to turn the light in just to see if you are there, and what you are doing, and will likely have to watch for hours to catch any incriminating footage. You will have plenty of notice.

And what sort of hardware switch is it that guarantees the 3 second minimum?

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#390

Post by stevenwliao »

valuearb wrote: post #317
CapitalistCartr wrote: post #264

I don't want a warning light. I don't want audited code. I don't want encryption. I don't want security updates. I want the fucking camera to not take pictures without my turning it on.

Great news, Mac camera lights are hardwired to the camera, and have been for ten years, no code necessary!

The light only tells them after their camera turns on, so it doesn't address their concern.
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