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Why general artificial intelligence will not be realized

nature.com

121–130 of 403 posts

Re: Why general artificial intelligence will not be realized

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And here's DH just a couple years ago, > If you ask me in principle if it’s possible for a computing hardware to do something like thinking, I would say absolutely it’s possible. Computing hardware can do anything that a brain could do, but I don’t think at this point we’re doing what brains do. We’re simulating the surface level of it, and many people are falling for the illusion. Sometimes the performance of these…

If we're successfully simulating the surface level of it, the underlying mechanism is (imho) totally irrelevant to the user. If general intelligence is happening, does it really matter if the underlying mechanism is neurons, or transistors, or vacuum tubes?

The surface level of intelligence, not the biological implementation. Chess and Go programs have a surface level understanding of board games.

Re: Why general artificial intelligence will not be realized

#122
post #28
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Our sensorium could be indistinguishable from how it'd be in a simulation without impacting my point. Software can hop from host to host (all Turing machines can simulate each other) but living intelligence is embodied. Because of this, no matter how "smart" computers get, we can't trust them not to do stupid stuff. They are smart like that kid in high school who comes up with a formula to turn the world into silly p…

But would it be impossible to have artificial “skin in the game”? Is there no robot body that could serve this purpose?

Why isn’t computer hardware already as “embodied” in the physical world as our brain matter is?

Re: Why general artificial intelligence will not be realized

#123
post #2

I posted the article because it is thought provoking, although I disagree with it. The reason is for example statements like this "The real problem is that computers are not in the world, because they are not embodied." "And I shall argue that they cannot pass the full Turing test because they are not in the world, and, therefore, they have no understanding." First I think that whether something is embodied or not do…

As others have said, I think this is a better argument against machines emulating humanness than it is against the broader category of "general intelligence".

For me it always comes down to: If we assume the human mind to be a physical, deterministic phenomenon, then an informational, deterministic system could simulate it. It's as simple as that. To take the brute-force route, every atom in a human body could be simulated, which would include its intelligence.

Now, that says nothing about time-scale or practicality. It doesn't even say anything about whether electronic computers as we know them can achieve the physical density necessary to simulate something so complex, given the natural resources we have available. But in principle, unless you believe in the metaphysical, there's no denying that AGI is something that can exist.

Re: Why general artificial intelligence will not be realized

#124
post #2

I posted the article because it is thought provoking, although I disagree with it. The reason is for example statements like this "The real problem is that computers are not in the world, because they are not embodied." "And I shall argue that they cannot pass the full Turing test because they are not in the world, and, therefore, they have no understanding." First I think that whether something is embodied or not do…

[deleted]

Re: Why general artificial intelligence will not be realized

#125
post #79
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I contend the brain by definition is a computer, and so that any claim that we can not produce an artificial one implies that we'll forever be unable to replicate a process that is repeated over and over by nature through simple biochemical processes.

'>I contend the brain by definition is a computer, I contend the brain is by definition a duck. It's easy to redefine words.

The word "computer" was a profession before it was a machine.

Programmers effectively emulate a compiler in their minds when they are programming. I don't see why it's so hard to accept that the brain has many "computer" capabilities, even if it's implemented with different materials.

Re: Why general artificial intelligence will not be realized

#126
post #54
post #2

I posted the article because it is thought provoking, although I disagree with it. The reason is for example statements like this "The real problem is that computers are not in the world, because they are not embodied." "And I shall argue that they cannot pass the full Turing test because they are not in the world, and, therefore, they have no understanding." First I think that whether something is embodied or not do…

Thanks for posting, I also disagree with it. I think using this authors high level stance is that only the human physical experience can lead to general intelligence. By this logic a blind person or quadrapeligic might not be generally intelligent.

Not quite. The unconscious management of the internal systems that keep us alive are as much a part of that physical experience, as our motor-sensory apparatus. In fact, some neurologists suggest that these unconscious urges are the most likely governors of 'conscious' action. That's a gross oversimplification... Dr Antonio Domasio explores the idea in fine detail in his books. Particularly 'The Self Comes to Mind'.

Re: Why general artificial intelligence will not be realized

#127
post #5
post #2

I posted the article because it is thought provoking, although I disagree with it. The reason is for example statements like this "The real problem is that computers are not in the world, because they are not embodied." "And I shall argue that they cannot pass the full Turing test because they are not in the world, and, therefore, they have no understanding." First I think that whether something is embodied or not do…

My hunch agrees with the paper. Because computers operate on the rational numbers instead of the real numbers, they can never be embodied. They are always in a simulation...

"Real numbers" have some problems. Information density, for one. Imagine a real number, say 0.27777..., represented as a point on a piece of string, with zero being one end and 1.0 being the other. That point represents infinite information density. It also would seem to run afoul of some of quantum mechanics.

Re: Why general artificial intelligence will not be realized

#128
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe I don’t understand your point, but our senses are also compressed to some extent. Your synapses fire or don’t fire, providing digitized input for some of your senses like hearing. At any point there is a discrete amount of hormones in your body. etc etc. That doesn’t seem categorically different from any man made sensor.

Our sensorium could be indistinguishable from how it'd be in a simulation without impacting my point. Software can hop from host to host (all Turing machines can simulate each other) but living intelligence is embodied. Because of this, no matter how "smart" computers get, we can't trust them not to do stupid stuff. They are smart like that kid in high school who comes up with a formula to turn the world into silly p…

We can't trust people not to do stupid stuff.

Re: Why general artificial intelligence will not be realized

#129
Embodiment being a killer feature for AGI seems weird to me. Not only is "what is a body" vague, but it is entirely possible to build a body. So why would it prevent AGI?

We do know that embodiment is a sufficient condition for general intelligence: if we assume humans have general intelligence then it is clearly a sufficient condition. But the question of necessary is more interesting because we have to actually ask what embodiment means.

Is a computer a embodied machine? What about a robot that can explore its environment? What about a simulation with an environment? If no, what makes us distinct? If yes, does embodiment even matter?

To me it is clear that feature space is the more important issue. It is also clear that embodiment helps with creating a more complex and rich feature space. The ability to move around and interact with your environment greatly expands the complexity of the environment.

I think the bigger question is about our ability to create rich enough environments to generate intelligence. Even if we can get machines in bodies, can we get them into the complex and evolving environmental pressures that we experienced over millions of years (without robots living for similar timescales)? It is reasonable to think that at some point in time we'd be able to have that kind of computational power. It is also possible that the learning function is incredibly difficult. With a large and complex feature space there are many local extrema and it may be possible that general intelligence is only possible with a few of these (essentially we can have an estimation similar to the Drake Equation). But overall, I'm not sure there really is any issue that means AGI is impossible. Maybe at current knowledge and computational limits, maybe for all of the foreseeable future! But I don't see any limitations in physics that are killers.

Re: Why general artificial intelligence will not be realized

#130

It is difficult to build/create something you don't understand. A computer is just a playback machine for binary logic. We know that "intelligence" can create binary logic. We don't know if binary logic can create "intelligence". Claims that it is possible are really more "religious" than scientific at this point.

Now go back to step 4, make the additional assumption that dualism is false and restart the proof.
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