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Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

whose.land

121–130 of 264 posts

Re: Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Hearing from the heart” This is just undefined, non-falsifiable, linguistic drivel that allows you - and you alone - to dismiss any response you dont like. Which you do.

The concepts of empathy and active listening are well defined. Calling those concepts "undefined, non-falsifiable, linguistic drivel" is completely unsubstantiated.

I think the problem is when the speaker gets to be the sole determinant of sufficient empathy and listening. It leaves no room for disagreement.

>If you truly empathize with me and understood my position, surely you would agree with me. If you disagree, then you have not listened with sufficient empathy.

Re: Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

#122

The idea of the stable borders is so new. The Ottoman Empire still controlled much of the middle east before World War I. The British Empire was also still quite expansive at the beginning of that war (and into WW2). The fact that so much of the world speaks Latin-derived languages (French, Spanish, Portuguese, Romanian, Italian...nearly 1 billion people in total) is a relic of the Roman empire's own expansive conque…

Indian land was taken over the course of hundreds of years of false promises and violated treaties. European settlers were predominately the ones drawing the maps, and consistently taking what was not only not theirs to begin with, but what they had agreed belonged to the native tribes and then took anyway. We're not talking about thousands of years of human history, we're talking about very real injustices that are…

How is it different from the Arab conquest of the middle east and north Africa? or the Mongolian conquest of everything around them or the Han Chinese takeover of everywhere that is now current China? Or Turkish tribes conquest of today Turkey? And why do you think the tribes in America want to rebel? Life in America as it is are good for them like any other citizen in America.

Re: Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

#124

Maps like these give the false impression that nearly every square mile of land - even inhospitable desert regions, were once occupied by some native polity. Reality check: Most indigenous peoples lived in Mesoamerica, with < 10 million in what is now USA/Canada and that's being generous. There are regions of North America today that have no residents. By what grounds are these native lands - because some nomads once…

For one thing, it's incredibly chauvinistic to dismiss pre-colombian society as "some nomads," and their mobility patterns as having "wandered". Nomadic life-ways aren't the thoughtless ramblings of a child at play, or a sub-sentient beast in simple reactionary pursuit of greener pastures. They summer here, winter there, raise children in these parts, and visit those for sport, trade, or agriculture. Their relationship with the land is purposeful, and maintained by cultural artifacts we'd recognize as Almanacs.

One isn't "wandering" just because they haven't poured concrete.

For another thing, the pre-colombian americas weren't the Gardens of Eden, magically and effortlessly producing sustenance, and materials for us to enjoy. They were cultivated, sculpted, and gamed into those forms which facilitated our survival. There's evidence enough of that in the ways that restrictive intra- and under-growth have returned to the forests indigenous populations kept pruned for their traversal.

Lastly, biomes are big systems, and interconnected. I may have only a small garden, but it's fed from massive watersheds. If I am to survive, the mountains which constitute that watershed must be recognized as "mine" in some regard. So it goes with all the lands which feed into, and out of, those through which "some nomads once wandered."

I hope you can see, now, how myopically your "reality check" frames the situation.

Edit: I took out a specious allusion to the BLM.

Re: Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

#125
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There probably isn't an easy, simple or universally acceptable answer. But... the US taking its treaty obligations with native peoples as seriously as it does with other nations would be a good start.

As I said yesterday in our conversation, we are in agreement there but I'm not quite sure it solves the problem. A "good start" isn't a solution to the problem and even the "good start" requires enforcing some form of racial governance model otherwise its just another county of the United States. The situation is at the very least complex and will likely require a "morally impure" solution.

Historical injustice is not something that people living today are responsible for. Therefore the "problem" of historical injustice is best solved by people today forgiving the people from the past and moving on with their lives.

Re: Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

#126

This map should really have some dates on it. It might represent the state of things within, say, a 100 year period (or so) of European arrival, but it doesn't convey the history of humans in North America. I read the FAQ and could not find any information on what time period is represented here. If someone showed you a map of Europe or China marked out like this, it would be natural to ask "when is this?" None of th…

I appreciate this point. In a similar vein, DNA services like 23andMe should also come with dates on them. In fact, frankly, any mention of ethnicity should come with a date. No cultural group–bound by genes of memes–is truly the same river twice.

Re: Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

#127

Human history is a story of conquest, and Native Americans fought - fought , not rolled over on their bellies - and were conquered by white settlers. It might not have been a very fair fight given the disparity in technology but it was a fight nonetheless. The natives were certainly fighting each other before whites arrived, too - the warrior role is an important part of many tribes' culture. Should the Comanche give…

Humans have not found a more stable normative concept of capital allocation (property) than: "Who got here first."

Well, "who got here with the biggest stick."

Re: Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People today are generally not limited by the historical context from which they come. Your parents' individual personalities and ability to raise you does matter, but broader historical context matters very little, unless we try to make it so and that generally just causes conflict. People in wheelchairs are on the other hand affected by the presence or absence of wheelchair ramps.

Dude, go visit the Pine Ridge Reservation and then come back here and say "prople today are generally not limited by the historical context from which they come. Or the Standing Rock reservation, or ...

The reservations themselves are responsible for the deplorable state of the people living on them.

If the Natives had integrated a few generations ago they would be far better off today.

Re: Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

#129

The idea of the stable borders is so new. The Ottoman Empire still controlled much of the middle east before World War I. The British Empire was also still quite expansive at the beginning of that war (and into WW2). The fact that so much of the world speaks Latin-derived languages (French, Spanish, Portuguese, Romanian, Italian...nearly 1 billion people in total) is a relic of the Roman empire's own expansive conque…

> From a certain perspective, all of human history can be summed up as an endless series of blood feuds. Is it so bad that people think we should try to do better? In my history classes I learned about Europe - itself very much in flux as you mention through the past thousand years - being "invaded" and America being "settled." Things need to be properly acknowledged before they can be moved past. And some of these t…

>Europe - itself very much in flux as you mention through the past thousand years - being "invaded" and America being "settled."

Sometimes, so-called invasions are really migrations. Its no longer correct to talk about aryan invasions, now its the indo-european migrations. On the other hand, the term invasion can be justified. The mongols were not migrants or settlers - they were invading conquerors true as history.

Re: Whose Land – Indigenous Nations of North America

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dude, go visit the Pine Ridge Reservation and then come back here and say "prople today are generally not limited by the historical context from which they come. Or the Standing Rock reservation, or ...

Or your local BLM protest. The Brookings Institution has a good survey of the relevant history, here: https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2020/02/27/examining...

Why does that article not address the most dominant cause of the wealth gap, which is broken homes and blacks dropping out of school, not going to college etc?

That's an issue of personal choices more than anything else.

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