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Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

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Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#171

Post by chrisjc »

soulofmischief wrote: post #160

If you close your Mac notebook with a camera cover installed, you might damage your display because the clearance between the display and keyboard is designed to very tight tolerances. Doesn't this sound like an engineering oversight and not a user error? Why are camera covers not just part of the design? My phone camera physically retracts when not in use.

> because the clearance between the display and keyboard is designed to very tight tolerances.

Sounds like engineering excellence to me.

But I agree with you that there should perhaps be some kind of physical block/switch built in.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#172

Post by read_if_gay_ »

dathinab wrote: post #108
NovemberWhiskey wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>2013: iSeeYou: Disabling the MacBook Webcam Indicator LED https://jscholarship.library.jhu.edu/handle/1774.2/36569 ... applies only to older Mac notebooks from like 2008 period which are long since obsolete according to Apple's announced support policy. >2016: Your Mac’s Camera Can Be Hacked https://www.intego.com/mac-security-blog/your-macs-camera-ca... . ... refers specifically the exploit above. >2016: Former NSA…

Doesn't matter. For many people the trust in integrated laptop cameras has been thoroughly eroded especially in case of Macs. (From my experience by interacting with people not having much tech experience, limited to Germany, maybe also limited to the social cycle(s) I interacted with.) The paradox thing is that the same people who often don't trust webcams in Apple Laptops or Apple All-In-One PCs do not bother or ev…

Why especially in Macs? Were there any particular horror stories?

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#173

Post by jcun4128 »

Lol I have electrical tape with a piece of paper on the part that goes over the camera lens. Use both 2015 and 16"

Also not sure about this "tight tolerance" as there's a rubber seam all the way around the screen that would have a gap between the camera and laptop body right?

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#174

Post by dividedbyzero »

warent wrote: post #157
dividedbyzero wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe that's misguided and naive, but I pretty much trust my phone to protect me from bad actors taking over the camera; I'll have to trust the apps I use that have camera access to not spy on me, but those are few. Until relatively recently, any userspace app on my computer could freely access the camera and microphone, including background processes and malware, so that feels a lot riskier. There seems to be a perm…

This might be true for yourself as a technical savvy person. Camera covers are particularly important to people who are self-aware enough to realize they don't have the tech skills to keep bad actors from gaining access to their camera

As a tech-savvy person, I definitely don't have the skills to make sure of that on a laptop. I might be one brew install obscure-util-from-random-HN-comment (or npm install ...) away from inadvertently giving away all my privacy.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#175

Post by Closi »

causality0 wrote: post #144
NovemberWhiskey wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you just moved the goal-posts from a discussion about whether the implementation was faulty (and Apple was misleading their product owners) to one about whether the design compromises are right. Apple claims that the LED comes on when the camera is active, which it claims helps protect your privacy. That seems to be true, and certainly no-one seems to have any contradictory examples that are not 12+ years old. I…

The question is whether this is a firmware implementation that's just waiting for a 0-day or if the +V for the CMOS sensor is literally wired to the LED. If the latter I'd like to see a picture of it.

This blogpost claims to have a message from an apple engineer stating that it’s now hardware level:

https://daringfireball.net/2019/02/on_covering_webcams

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#176

Post by DanBC »

livre wrote: post #111
miles wrote: post #23

> "Designed to protect your privacy, Mac notebooks have a camera indicator light to let you know when the camera is on. ... Published Date: July 02, 2020" Perhaps Apple missed these? 2013: iSeeYou: Disabling the MacBook Webcam Indicator LED https://jscholarship.library.jhu.edu/handle/1774.2/36569 2016: Your Mac’s Camera Can Be Hacked https://www.intego.com/mac-security-blog/your-macs-camera-ca... 2016: Former NSA emp…

> Designed to protect your privacy, Mac notebooks have a camera indicator light to let you know when the camera is on. ... The main problem with that isn't that it is possible to disable the LED. The problem is that the LED is like a smoke detector, when it alerts you it's already too late, you are on fire (or your photo/video has already been taken). An indicator LED doesn't protect your privacy, it only tells you w…

The problem with a physical cover is that if the bad guys can install software on your computer that can access the camera without setting off the LED they can also install just about anything they want. At that point nothing on the computer can be trusted.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#177

Post by knodi123 »

duxup wrote: post #11

This seems like a pretty mild warning for folks who might stick a bulky cover on their camera and press down / pack their laptop tightly and now have wedged part of the screen open with the cover. I'm a fan of using painters tape.... pretty low profile, easily removed, stays on really well. Also the weird blue glow you get when the camera is on tells you pretty quick "Hey there's a cover on there" where sometimes wit…

> I'm a fan of using painters tape.... pretty low profile, easily removed, stays on really well

The cleverest solution I've seen that is 1.) easily toggled, and 2.) harmless to screens is a coworker who built a little vinyl veil that attaches to the top back of their monitor. They can flip it forward to cover the camera, or flip it back to use it. But if you close even the tightest of lids with a couple microns of vinyl in there, it's harmless. Bada-bing, problem solved, and they only used a penny or two worth of materials.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#178

Post by tlrobinson »

miles wrote: post #23

> "Designed to protect your privacy, Mac notebooks have a camera indicator light to let you know when the camera is on. ... Published Date: July 02, 2020" Perhaps Apple missed these? 2013: iSeeYou: Disabling the MacBook Webcam Indicator LED https://jscholarship.library.jhu.edu/handle/1774.2/36569 2016: Your Mac’s Camera Can Be Hacked https://www.intego.com/mac-security-blog/your-macs-camera-ca... 2016: Former NSA emp…

There should be roughly ~0 cost (maybe a few cents?) to tie indicator LEDs to the camera and microphones's power supplies, and make it independently auditable by anyone with a multimeter (and maybe a magnifying glass?)

Is there a database of laptops that do this correctly?

I guess you'd also want the microphone physically disconnected when the cover is closed, or at least have the LED visible when the cover is closed.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#179

Post by scarface74 »

outoftheabyss wrote: post #166
scarface74 wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even though you could get far more information by hacking the built in microphone.....

I would say you are equally likely to catch someone jacking off through the webcam as to catch valuable information through the microphone. They are therefore equally lucrative

How could it be equally lucrative? The amount of information someone can gather from a camera is much smaller than what you could gather from a microphone in a given room.

If I am in a conference room talking about strategy, an uncovered camera will just pick me up. The microphone will capture everyone’s conversation.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#180

Post by drdaeman »

SAI_Peregrinus wrote: post #135
GuiA wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a laptop with a physical switch for WiFi/Bluetooth in 2006 or so (with a matching orange/blue light that would turn up when you toggled it). The problem was that this was actually all done by a software driver - when I booted into Linux with the laptop I was surprised to find that the bluetooth/wifi modules were on regardless of the switch's position. At the end of the day, unless you have a really nice microsc…

I have a Lenovo Thinkpad T480. Its webcam switch is a slider that covers the webcam lens. You don't need a fancy microscope, or a solid understanding of EE, or tens of thousands of hours. You need the ability to see the slider cover the lens. Takes all of half a second and at least 1 eye.

Plot twist: the slider material could be opaque in the visible spectrum but transparent in IR.

/s

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