Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera • Hacker News Board

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#161

Post by ISL » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 9:14 PM UTC

causality0 wrote: post #144

NovemberWhiskey wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you just moved the goal-posts from a discussion about whether the implementation was faulty (and Apple was misleading their product owners) to one about whether the design compromises are right. Apple claims that the LED comes on when the camera is active, which it claims helps protect your privacy. That seems to be true, and certainly no-one seems to have any contradictory examples that are not 12+ years old. I…

The question is whether this is a firmware implementation that's just waiting for a 0-day or if the +V for the CMOS sensor is literally wired to the LED. If the latter I'd like to see a picture of it.

Someone out there can buy a broken MacBook off eBay and score some YouTube notoriety to do this very investigation.

Bonus points for using a Sawzall to get started.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#162

Post by ph4te » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 9:15 PM UTC

I learned this the hard way with one of these slide covers from CloudFlare I got at BlackHat Conference. Picked up the Mac with one hand and I heard the crack. Needlees to say I now have a vinyl type sticky cover I just move on and off when I need to use the camera. Apple replaced the screen for me for a small fee of course. https://www.ipromo.com/promo-products/20101/Custom-Webcam-Co...

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#163

Post by abrowne » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 9:15 PM UTC

I always wonder why the people who cover webcams don't think about the mic. Isn't that almost worse? It could grab speech even if you aren't right in front of the camera.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#164

Post by jereees » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 9:16 PM UTC

soulofmischief wrote: post #160

If you close your Mac notebook with a camera cover installed, you might damage your display because the clearance between the display and keyboard is designed to very tight tolerances. Doesn't this sound like an engineering oversight and not a user error? Why are camera covers not just part of the design? My phone camera physically retracts when not in use.

Your phone camera sounds like an engineering oversight.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#165

Post by DoofusOfDeath » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 9:16 PM UTC

milesvp wrote: post #139

dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is in the design: by not providing a hardware switch, all we have is trust. As we can see from the past, unfortunatly it's not enough.

Just so you know, switches in something as complicated as a laptop have a good chance at being connected to a processor , with firmware being the thing that determines what the switch does. So you still need trust, even with a physical switch. Source: write firmware for a living, and write drivers for physical switches.

That's a good point. I'm guessing that people calling for a "hardware switch" implicitly mean one that cannot be overridden by firmware.

I.e., a traditional switch inline on the circuit(s) connecting the camera / microphone to the rest of the system.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#166

Post by outoftheabyss » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 9:18 PM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #154

dathinab wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't matter. For many people the trust in integrated laptop cameras has been thoroughly eroded especially in case of Macs. (From my experience by interacting with people not having much tech experience, limited to Germany, maybe also limited to the social cycle(s) I interacted with.) The paradox thing is that the same people who often don't trust webcams in Apple Laptops or Apple All-In-One PCs do not bother or ev…

Even though you could get far more information by hacking the built in microphone.....

I would say you are equally likely to catch someone jacking off through the webcam as to catch valuable information through the microphone. They are therefore equally lucrative

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#167

Post by sixothree » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 9:18 PM UTC

soulofmischief wrote: post #160

If you close your Mac notebook with a camera cover installed, you might damage your display because the clearance between the display and keyboard is designed to very tight tolerances. Doesn't this sound like an engineering oversight and not a user error? Why are camera covers not just part of the design? My phone camera physically retracts when not in use.

I am convinced they were ordered at some point to include cameras. They definitely drive up the cost of laptops, especially earlier on when webcams were more expensive. There were so few practical uses in the early days and so few people actually use them today that I am surprised few laptop manufacturers don't allow for security.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#168

Post by zndr » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 9:19 PM UTC

causality0 wrote: post #144

NovemberWhiskey wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you just moved the goal-posts from a discussion about whether the implementation was faulty (and Apple was misleading their product owners) to one about whether the design compromises are right. Apple claims that the LED comes on when the camera is active, which it claims helps protect your privacy. That seems to be true, and certainly no-one seems to have any contradictory examples that are not 12+ years old. I…

The question is whether this is a firmware implementation that's just waiting for a 0-day or if the +V for the CMOS sensor is literally wired to the LED. If the latter I'd like to see a picture of it.

It isn't the led is physically slaved to the power of the camera, the previous version was firmware fixed and was hacked, hence the change.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#169

Post by axoltl » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 9:19 PM UTC

causality0 wrote: post #144

NovemberWhiskey wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you just moved the goal-posts from a discussion about whether the implementation was faulty (and Apple was misleading their product owners) to one about whether the design compromises are right. Apple claims that the LED comes on when the camera is active, which it claims helps protect your privacy. That seems to be true, and certainly no-one seems to have any contradictory examples that are not 12+ years old. I…

The question is whether this is a firmware implementation that's just waiting for a 0-day or if the +V for the CMOS sensor is literally wired to the LED. If the latter I'd like to see a picture of it.

Hi!

I was the security architect for this feature on recent Macs. The LED is wired to the camera PMIC and is powered by the voltage rail that powers the camera. The PMIC will always remain on if the system has power. Macs newer than 4 or so years also have a feature that forces the LED to stay lit for at least 3 seconds after it has been turned on to prevent the single-frame-grab attack.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#170

Post by epberry » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 9:19 PM UTC

Covering the camera is so silly. Do people also stuff the microphone hole with glue? Do they reinstall the keyboard and look for trackers. Do they think about all the software they use which is collecting far more information than grainy shots of your face could ever provide?