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Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

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Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#111

Post by livre »

miles wrote: post #23

> "Designed to protect your privacy, Mac notebooks have a camera indicator light to let you know when the camera is on. ... Published Date: July 02, 2020" Perhaps Apple missed these? 2013: iSeeYou: Disabling the MacBook Webcam Indicator LED https://jscholarship.library.jhu.edu/handle/1774.2/36569 2016: Your Mac’s Camera Can Be Hacked https://www.intego.com/mac-security-blog/your-macs-camera-ca... 2016: Former NSA emp…

> Designed to protect your privacy, Mac notebooks have a camera indicator light to let you know when the camera is on. ...

The main problem with that isn't that it is possible to disable the LED. The problem is that the LED is like a smoke detector, when it alerts you it's already too late, you are on fire (or your photo/video has already been taken). An indicator LED doesn't protect your privacy, it only tells you when it has already been breached.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#112

Post by jimnotgym »

GuiA wrote: post #97
dvfjsdhgfv wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had another laptop with a hardware switch and a corresponding LED, and it worked exactly as it should - the hardware was completely inaccessible under Linux. So yes, it can be done and it's not rocket science.

Yes, what you describe is trivial - and it would be similarly trivial to design a module that appears to respect the switch (regardless of Linux/Windows) and yet records things surreptitiously, only to offload it at a later date. Remember the amount of effort VW was willing to expand to cheat emissions testing.

That's why I like the old Thinkpad with the physical cover and the LED

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#113

Post by slenk »

awake wrote: post #16
0xDEEPFAC wrote: post #9

Well, being in the security field I would want to know if that light is software or hardware controlled.

The light is hardware controlled. The camera can only get power when the light is on.

Now. It definitely wasn't always

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#115

Post by dathinab »

duxup wrote: post #11

This seems like a pretty mild warning for folks who might stick a bulky cover on their camera and press down / pack their laptop tightly and now have wedged part of the screen open with the cover. I'm a fan of using painters tape.... pretty low profile, easily removed, stays on really well. Also the weird blue glow you get when the camera is on tells you pretty quick "Hey there's a cover on there" where sometimes wit…

But it's also a sign about Apple not doing a good wrt. making their premium products robust.

With many other Laptops in that price range you would either have to use a very fat cover or apply a amount of pressure which might damage your laptop anyway. I just tried it (carefully) with my laptop and the screen has enough "play"/"flex" to handle it just fine.

PS: Fun fact as far as I remember a number of webcams with LED indicator allow (or did allow in the past) anyone using the camera to switch off the indicator without stopping using the camera...

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#116

Post by dividedbyzero »

dathinab wrote: post #108
NovemberWhiskey wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>2013: iSeeYou: Disabling the MacBook Webcam Indicator LED https://jscholarship.library.jhu.edu/handle/1774.2/36569 ... applies only to older Mac notebooks from like 2008 period which are long since obsolete according to Apple's announced support policy. >2016: Your Mac’s Camera Can Be Hacked https://www.intego.com/mac-security-blog/your-macs-camera-ca... . ... refers specifically the exploit above. >2016: Former NSA…

Doesn't matter. For many people the trust in integrated laptop cameras has been thoroughly eroded especially in case of Macs. (From my experience by interacting with people not having much tech experience, limited to Germany, maybe also limited to the social cycle(s) I interacted with.) The paradox thing is that the same people who often don't trust webcams in Apple Laptops or Apple All-In-One PCs do not bother or ev…

Maybe that's misguided and naive, but I pretty much trust my phone to protect me from bad actors taking over the camera; I'll have to trust the apps I use that have camera access to not spy on me, but those are few.

Until relatively recently, any userspace app on my computer could freely access the camera and microphone, including background processes and malware, so that feels a lot riskier. There seems to be a permission for this that must be granted in the newer macOS versions, but I assume there might be ways around that.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#117

Post by kilo_bravo_3 »

godelski wrote: post #62
kilo_bravo_3 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never understood physical covers, then again I am never in a compromising position in front of my laptop. Any malware that can take pictures can record keystrokes. I want no cover so I can see the activity light because knowing the webcam is on is more important than it being on. The (pennsylvania?) school district webcam spying scandal got kicked off because a boy noticed his webcam light coming on. If it had b…

I don't understand why people have window curtains and close them at night. If you have them closed then you can't see the person spying on you outside. Door locks are more important. This is what you sound like. The things can be used in conjunction with one another. It is not an or scenario, you can have both. You can also have covers which don't cover the indicator. You use different deterrent mechanisms for diffe…

Except to use your metaphor, software control of a webcam is like closing the blinds and putting a physical cover over the lens is like covering a window in aluminum foil in addition to closing the blinds.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#118

Post by 3pt14159 »

markstos wrote: post #70
noja wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait: that's not the same as having a camera cover. A camera cover guarantees that the camera can only work when the camera is uncovered. A camera light alerts you once the camera is already on .

Important distinction. If your microphone is compromised, your web cam might be triggered to turn on just long enough to take a photo, or the camera could turn on only when the mic is quiet and there are indications the person is not engaged with the computer.

Should be a tiny mechanical device in addition to the light and it should only unlock with touch id. Same for microphone. Honestly, I want the same thing for phones too. The ease by which we are monitored is too damn high.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#119

Post by gumby »

samrolken wrote: post #94
markstos wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's possible to have hardware kill switches that can't be compromised via software. Apple opts not to include them. Purism laptops include them. https://puri.sm/products/librem-14/

Apple includes this on the latest iPads and Macs with the T2 chip. https://techcrunch.com/2020/04/03/apple-hardware-microphone-...

Only when the cover is shut. That prevents an important set of attacks. But a mechanical switch in the power connection to the two devices keeps you from accidentally broadcasting when on, say, a Zoom call.

Re: Don't close your MacBook with a cover over the camera

#120

Post by gumby »

markstos wrote: post #75
gumby wrote: post #69

Apple should have an indicator light for the microphone as well, and to avoid confusion,far from the camera. I don’t think it’s possible to block the mic.

It's possible to have hardware kill switches that can't be compromised via software. Apple opts not to include them. Purism laptops include them. https://puri.sm/products/librem-14/

Much to my surprise, amazon Alexa devices with mute buttons use a hard button, not a soft input.
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