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Why general artificial intelligence will not be realized

nature.com

61–70 of 403 posts

Re: Why general artificial intelligence will not be realized

#61
post #5
post #2

I posted the article because it is thought provoking, although I disagree with it. The reason is for example statements like this "The real problem is that computers are not in the world, because they are not embodied." "And I shall argue that they cannot pass the full Turing test because they are not in the world, and, therefore, they have no understanding." First I think that whether something is embodied or not do…

My hunch agrees with the paper. Because computers operate on the rational numbers instead of the real numbers, they can never be embodied. They are always in a simulation...

The counter-point to this: Brains.

Brains are computational devices that are embodied.

Re: Why general artificial intelligence will not be realized

#62
post #46
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It always mystifies me to what extent people insist on trying to hold on to this fantasy of free will, while remaining unable to define free will in a way that does not devolve to "magic" or some attempt to obscure a deterministic description behind smoke and mirrors. At least some of the latter (e.g. a portion of compatibilists etc.) will if pressed admit that their "free will" is an effect or illusion of mind layer…

The offender I hear most often now a days is trying to use Quantum Mechanics to bring free-will back into play. The idea being that if any part of nature is unpredictable, then that could be a mechanism for where free-will might come from. Except that would be like saying your phone is conscious just because it gets bombarded by cosmic waves that sometimes cause bitflips. Just because the machine isn't 100% predictab…

> The idea being that if any part of nature is unpredictable, then that could be a mechanism for where free-will might come from.

Trying to use QM to introduce free will is just another manifestation of the same "mistaking the model for the reality" problem.

We have no reason to believe that quantum probability is the end of the road just because we can't see what causes the probabilistic results. For all anyone knows, Einstein was still correct and there is still no god playing dice, just the same old predictable billiard balls at a plane that we can't readily observe.

Re: Why general artificial intelligence will not be realized

#63
post #2

I posted the article because it is thought provoking, although I disagree with it. The reason is for example statements like this "The real problem is that computers are not in the world, because they are not embodied." "And I shall argue that they cannot pass the full Turing test because they are not in the world, and, therefore, they have no understanding." First I think that whether something is embodied or not do…

It doesn't seem to be required that an animal have sensory information. [1] I'm not convinced by the argument that a computer can't think just because it doesn't experience the world. If anything, experiments like (1) show that we may be able to better understand how brains work if we get rid of all the "noise" from external stimulation so we can better understand the signals.

[1] https://www.quantamagazine.org/random-search-wired-into-anim...

Re: Why general artificial intelligence will not be realized

#64
Personally, it feels to me that maybe AGI is possible, but a computer capable of it would look nothing like the computers we have today. And, most critically, I'm aware of no highly-progressed research into major new physical hardware systems which more closely resemble our neurons.

There are billions of neurons in a brain. There are billions of transistors in a CPU or graphics card. Somehow, somewhere along the line, we convinced ourselves that brain neurons and transistors are fungible.

At some layer of abstraction they probably are. But, it seems to me that the sheer number of transistors necessary to emulate a neuron would lead to tertiary negative impacts to the overall system. Imagine, for a second, it takes a billion transistors to emulate one neuron; given we're quickly approaching the physical size limit of the universe in our production of transistors, this means you'd need many chips, and actually many computers, to emulate many neurons. Introduce many computers, and you have to introduce network latency and communication problems; both problems that the brain really does not have. And while you could argue "ok, the simulation will be slower, but it would still work", maybe, just maybe, the latency of communication between neurons is actually a critical component of cognition. In fact, that seems likely to me.

Many people are trying to build a brain on tensorflow with their nvidia graphics card originally designed to make unreal tournament run 20% faster. Google was among the first groups with the insight that custom silicon would make training and running these intelligences faster. But, what we're talking about here isn't "running faster"; its running fundamentally differently. We buy supermicro motherboards with PCI busses, plug in silicon that's just a little different than the silicon I use to play Doom Eternal; is it really any surprise that very little progress on AGI has been made?

I don't know what chips to truly, more accurately emulate a neuron would look like. I suspect no one knows. I suspect that, if anyone figures it out, it won't be Google, or Microsoft, or Apple, or China, or Russia; organizations with so many processes, procedures, and immediate-term outcome expectations that selling an idea as wild as "we can't use any of the pre-existing computing theory out there, we need to start from scratch" would be impossible, in favor of "can't you just make the Tensorcore V2 20% faster?" If it will be invented, it will be invented by one person, in their garage, with a unique insight and decades of work.

But I also suspect that it will never be invented. If we can't even solve alzheimers, or psychosis, or even depression, brain disorders which impact hundreds of millions of people every year, what level of hubris is necessary to think we have even 0.1% understanding of what goes on in our heads? We live in a society which refuses to even address, let alone help alleviate, mental illness, and you think we're going to be able to build, let alone maintain and debug, a simulated brain?

Re: Why general artificial intelligence will not be realized

#65

It is difficult to build/create something you don't understand. A computer is just a playback machine for binary logic. We know that "intelligence" can create binary logic. We don't know if binary logic can create "intelligence". Claims that it is possible are really more "religious" than scientific at this point.

"A computer is just a playback machine for binary logic." If you have code changing code, based on input, which is a neural net, then you have a bit more.

All purely binary logic. It can't be anything more --- this is all the hardware understands.

Re: Why general artificial intelligence will not be realized

#66
post #5
post #2

I posted the article because it is thought provoking, although I disagree with it. The reason is for example statements like this "The real problem is that computers are not in the world, because they are not embodied." "And I shall argue that they cannot pass the full Turing test because they are not in the world, and, therefore, they have no understanding." First I think that whether something is embodied or not do…

My hunch agrees with the paper. Because computers operate on the rational numbers instead of the real numbers, they can never be embodied. They are always in a simulation...

Camera pixels are pretty real to me

Re: Why general artificial intelligence will not be realized

#67
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you missed the main point, replicated economically. Given unlimited budget, I think simulating the human brain might be possible if one could use a powerful enough computer for evey neuron.

The article title makes an unqualified claim about realisation, and so it was what I responded to, but the article itself also makes the same strong claim: > A closer look reveals that although development of artificial intelligence for specific purposes (ANI) has been impressive, we have not come much closer to developing artificial general intelligence (AGI). The article further argues that this is in principle imp…

How the brain grows and develops in humans is not very well understood. We mostly use animal models to understand the nervous system, not humans. As an example of why this is problematic: mouse embryos pretty much turn inside out at day 3, and are the only known mammal to do this. All others, including humans, don't. Why and how are unknown, as are the effects on long term development. Basically, mice are better subjects than zebrafish, but not very good being humans.

The limiting factor is not budget or time, but 'stomach'. How elastic are your ethics?

Re: Why general artificial intelligence will not be realized

#68
post #67
post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article title makes an unqualified claim about realisation, and so it was what I responded to, but the article itself also makes the same strong claim: > A closer look reveals that although development of artificial intelligence for specific purposes (ANI) has been impressive, we have not come much closer to developing artificial general intelligence (AGI). The article further argues that this is in principle imp…

How the brain grows and develops in humans is not very well understood. We mostly use animal models to understand the nervous system, not humans. As an example of why this is problematic: mouse embryos pretty much turn inside out at day 3, and are the only known mammal to do this. All others, including humans, don't. Why and how are unknown, as are the effects on long term development. Basically, mice are better subj…

It's not very well understood, but the process is known to exist and work. To assume it can't even in principle be replicated would be an extraordinary claim. Yet the article suggests artificial intelligence can not exist even in principle.

Re: Why general artificial intelligence will not be realized

#69
post #32
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. In light of our limited understanding of how the brain works, claiming it is not possible to recreate its functions inside a computer programming is a much stronger claim than to assume that it’s possible and we just don’t know how. Unless we see a mathematical proof that it’s impossible, I think people who claim that it’s impossible are the same as people who clai…

This is just flipping the burden of proof around. What is your proof that it can be done? "But planes" is not proof. I'm of the opinion that we don't even know what questions we are trying to answer. What is intelligence? What is consciousness? Can you explain them in concrete terms that are acceptable to everyone and don't have any notable exceptions? That's going to be the first step to being anywhere close to real…

The strong indication that it can be done is that brains exists and grow guided by machinery that is computationally limited by the fact it takes up exceedingly little space, and we by extension can put an upper bound on the computational capacity of that machinery.

That there is a tough engineering job involved in reproducing such machinery so we can grown brain matter at will, and that we'd prefer our computers to be less squishy does not mean it is likely to be impossible to reproduce it.

Re: Why general artificial intelligence will not be realized

#70

This feels a lot like Douglas Hofstadter's elaborate explanation in Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid of how computers will never beat the best human chess players.

And here's DH just a couple years ago, > If you ask me in principle if it’s possible for a computing hardware to do something like thinking, I would say absolutely it’s possible. Computing hardware can do anything that a brain could do, but I don’t think at this point we’re doing what brains do. We’re simulating the surface level of it, and many people are falling for the illusion. Sometimes the performance of these…

If we're successfully simulating the surface level of it, the underlying mechanism is (imho) totally irrelevant to the user. If general intelligence is happening, does it really matter if the underlying mechanism is neurons, or transistors, or vacuum tubes?
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