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LibreOffice: The Next Five Years

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251–260 of 433 posts

Re: LibreOffice: The Next Five Years

#251

It's weird to me that people complain over "old and ugly" interfaces. Consistency is worth so much more than fad-chasing. Learning something is more worthwhile if you are able to trust that it won't change underneath you. Take MS Office for example, I was made to learn how to use it in elementary school, we had an exam where we got a printed out page and had to reproduce it in an hour. This was supposed to be fundame…

A good interface should not need to be learned. Everyday new people are born that have never used a bad interface before. There is no justification for keeping bad interfaces around just because you can learn them.

Interfaces that are hard to learn are also hard to recall. These lead to mistakes.

Re: LibreOffice: The Next Five Years

#252
post #53
post #25

I hate to rant, but there is a weird sense of entitlement in many comments. An assumption that software should "just work", be completely bug free, have the best design, have developers quickly responding to bug reports, etc, while giving away the product for free. I might not use an office suite very often, but when I do, I'm grateful it exists and is free/libre. Some orgs (gov, companies, service providers/reseller…

This is the de facto complaint of open source software, and initially I thought the entitlement can really only be explained by laziness, after all why don't people just bother to read the source code and contribute the feature they want? But then I realized its way way more rudimentary than that. A substantial amount of software developers struggle w/ interpersonal communication skills, and so often what may have be…

> why don't people just bother to read the source code and contribute the feature they want?

It is a bit far fetched to expect non programmer users to read the source code, much less contribute the feature (i.e. from requirements gathering to feasibility analysis, to design, implementation, testing, and release) isn't it?

That is the kind of work that only a compensated team would do, especially and something as complex as an office productivity suite. In other nonprofit areas, your organizations doing work rely on charitable contributions from donors who share the same interests. Until such a time that such donors exist, it's hard to see how the development model is funded.

> A substantial amount of software developers struggle w/ interpersonal communication skills, and so often what may have been intended as a polite feature suggestion came across as entitlement

They might have interpersonal issues, but it seems like the deeper issue here is more with the incentive model, not with the developers' personality traits.

Re: LibreOffice: The Next Five Years

#253
post #103
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As an ex trader, I can confirm that the new ribbon interface, when it first came out, caused me and my colleagues a world of pain. We knew all the shortcuts keys in the old version. The ribbon UI meant that a big chunk of the previous shortcuts didn't work anymore. Killed our productivity for a good few months.

Had the ribbon interface been the original UI and the traditional menu-based interface the new UI, it sounds like you and your colleagues would have still faced the same frustrations. To me, it sounds like your issue is with change rather than the effectiveness of either type of UI.

Of course there's an issue with change. That's the whole point. If you were a pro Emacs/Vi user that used shortcuts to do pretty much everything and it made you fast and productive, what do you think would happen if suddenly you had to use new shortcuts for all the ones you had already commited to memory?

Re: LibreOffice: The Next Five Years

#254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They've optimized it for the least common denominator, not for specialized use or for power users. Short term this is a positive approach as it's more approachable for people who are just learning or are very lightweight users. But for people who have a lot of experience or use it often, it's a serious regression.

I'm a "Power User" and I've memorized every single hotkey on the Excel ribbon interface to the point that I don't care where they are. Wrap text? Alt H A W Open settings? Alt T F T Change to page break view? Alt W I. Go back to normal view with Alt W L Take the border I currently have on the top edge of a cell and swap it to the bottom? Alt H B M Alt+T Alt+B Paste values transposing? Alt H V S V E. Want to follow the…

I'm an emacs user. You have made me feel warm inside.

Re: LibreOffice: The Next Five Years

#255

Democrats in the US House of Representatives just approved a $741 billion defense spending package. It will almost certainly clear the senate and be signed by the president. Imagine taking enough of that money to support these 40 LibreOffice developers and maybe say 20 more. There would be no need for these acrobatics around source availability. I understand why the companies need to do this. But there is an existing…

>Imagine taking enough of that money to support these 40 LibreOffice developers and maybe say 20 more. There are infinite ways to spend every dollar, why is LibreOffice funding worthy? In other words, why is LibreOffice's popularity so low that it cannot find a way to fund its operations? Which then raises the question - why do you want to fund an unpopular project?

As schools move more and more online they are locking into proprietary office programs that suck funds from schools, and students can't afford. Sure, as long as they are students they can use the school's software for free, but once they graduate they can't.

So in effect the government is already funding google docs and office 360. I would prefer the government fund opensource software that anyone who pays taxes can use for free.

Re: LibreOffice: The Next Five Years

#256

It's weird to me that people complain over "old and ugly" interfaces. Consistency is worth so much more than fad-chasing. Learning something is more worthwhile if you are able to trust that it won't change underneath you. Take MS Office for example, I was made to learn how to use it in elementary school, we had an exam where we got a printed out page and had to reproduce it in an hour. This was supposed to be fundame…

The only thing I want LibreOffice's UI to do is get the fuck out of my way.

Re: LibreOffice: The Next Five Years

#257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Imagine taking enough of that money to support these 40 LibreOffice developers and maybe say 20 more. There are infinite ways to spend every dollar, why is LibreOffice funding worthy? In other words, why is LibreOffice's popularity so low that it cannot find a way to fund its operations? Which then raises the question - why do you want to fund an unpopular project?

I think the idea is that 1% of a b52 bomber might take LibreOffice to an unparalleled place for a libre project.

But why is LibreOffice so special? Surely there are thousands of other projects that would also love 1% of the b52 bomber budget.

Re: LibreOffice: The Next Five Years

#258

Democrats in the US House of Representatives just approved a $741 billion defense spending package. It will almost certainly clear the senate and be signed by the president. Imagine taking enough of that money to support these 40 LibreOffice developers and maybe say 20 more. There would be no need for these acrobatics around source availability. I understand why the companies need to do this. But there is an existing…

>Imagine taking enough of that money to support these 40 LibreOffice developers and maybe say 20 more. There are infinite ways to spend every dollar, why is LibreOffice funding worthy? In other words, why is LibreOffice's popularity so low that it cannot find a way to fund its operations? Which then raises the question - why do you want to fund an unpopular project?

I think the cost should be compared to whatever they pay Microsoft for Office subscriptions for the federal government.

Re: LibreOffice: The Next Five Years

#259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Imagine taking enough of that money to support these 40 LibreOffice developers and maybe say 20 more. There are infinite ways to spend every dollar, why is LibreOffice funding worthy? In other words, why is LibreOffice's popularity so low that it cannot find a way to fund its operations? Which then raises the question - why do you want to fund an unpopular project?

As schools move more and more online they are locking into proprietary office programs that suck funds from schools, and students can't afford. Sure, as long as they are students they can use the school's software for free, but once they graduate they can't. So in effect the government is already funding google docs and office 360. I would prefer the government fund opensource software that anyone who pays taxes can…

>So in effect the government is already funding google docs and office 360.

Government buying services, or software, or anything, isn't really like 'funding', it's paying for services rendered.

>As schools move more and more online they are locking into proprietary office programs that suck funds from schools

And who is to say that LibreOffice is a good alternative. I'll tell you right now, it's not - which why it isn't really being used. It's a pain in the butt to deploy, and support at scale (from identity management, to sharing and collaborating, to security fixes and patches).

>I would prefer the government fund opensource software that anyone who pays taxes can use for free.

Sure. I have a preference for a lot of things too but we live in a democracy, so nobody gets to dictate their preferences. But feel free to engage with your local school board and make your case. Feel free convince your peers to make the case with you.

Re: LibreOffice: The Next Five Years

#260
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with this completely. It's a lot easier for me to read through a list of things in some category than it is for me to scan through a bunch of irregularly sized tiles for the icon and description of the configuration I need. For me, all of the pictures just lower the density of the information and cause it to take longer to parse every single time. I also question the basic premise that the tabbed interface is…

> “ I also question the basic premise that the tabbed interface is somehow more intuitive for new users. Like many UI related assertions, absolutely no concrete evidence is being provided to support this point. ” Uh, yeah there was? Go dig through the wayback machine for Jensen Harris’s blogpost series about the design of the ribbon, or watch his MIX08 talk on it; he was the design team lead for the change, and the r…

"There's absolutely no evidence for this" "yes there was, here's what to look for" "downvote". HN.txt.

Top level menus full by Word 95. Office 97 added command bars. Nested menus and toolbars full by Office 2000. Office XP added Task panes, full of features by Office 2003. "the Task Pane was the last attempt to find a way to scale old-style UI to programs as full-featured as Office. Although it was a successful stop-gap measure, it ran its course in only two versions." - https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/archive/blogs/jensenh/new-r...

> "The downside [of nested dropdown menus], however, was clear and eventually terminal: increased complexity. It's much more difficult for people to form a scanning strategy with hierarchical menus: you have to keep track at each moment which levels you've visited and which you've haven't. What was once a simple structure to visualize was now a more complicated, branching structure."

- https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/archive/blogs/jensenh/ye-ol...

> "As we watched more people use the prototypes, we started to understand more the scanning process that was taking place. Later on, we did eye-tracking studies to watch how people scanned the Ribbon"

> "I was reading a blog entry of someone who was kind of critical and dismissive about what we're doing and our designs. One of his criticisms was "how bad the usability of the Ribbon would be because it's got icons scattered all over of various sizes." What we've learned is actually the opposite. People can scan disparate patterns more easily than homogenous patterns. When we use more toolbar-like layouts--a bunch of equally-spaced, equally-sized buttons, people scan them less quickly than when each chunk has a memorable layout. So we actually try explicitly to vary the layouts between chunks--it helps people find the thing they're looking for more quickly. That's something we wouldn't have known if we didn't have a commitment to watch people work."

- https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/archive/blogs/jensenh/be-wi...

> "One of the concepts behind the Ribbon is that it's the one and only place to look for functionality in the product. If you want to look through Word 2003 to find an unfamiliar command, you need to look through 3 levels of hierarchical menus, open up 31 toolbars and peruse about 20 Task Panes. It's hard to formulate a "hunting" strategy to find the thing you're looking for because there's no logical path through all of the UI.

> Office "12" consolidates all of the entry points into one place: the Ribbon. So if you're trying to find a feature and don't know where it is, the scope of your search is drastically reduced. Click on the leftmost tab, and click across the tabs until you reach the end. That it. It's either there or it's not--there are no other "rocks" to look under, no other places we've hidden functionality. We've found in early tests that people find it easier to discover how to do new things in the Ribbon, and they're more apt to explore the UI looking for better ways to get things done."

Testing showed that people found the Ribbon easier, found more things, and were more willing to explore it. - https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/archive/blogs/jensenh/enter...

> "* Back in the olden days of designing software at Microsoft (say, pre-2003), design decisions were mostly supported by guesswork. [...] How much data have we collected? [in the Customer Experience opt-in program] About 1.3 billion sessions since we shipped Office 2003 (each session contains all the data points over a certain fixed time period.) [...] one of the biggest reasons that we decided to do the new user interface for Office 12 is simply that, for the first time, we have the data we need to make intelligent decisions.*"

- https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/archive/blogs/jensenh/insid...

And that's not even from the design blog, which appears to be offline and not in the wayback machine.

Totally wrong about people finding menus easier, totally wrong about there being no evidence based design behind the ribbon.

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