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John Cleese: Political Correctness Can Lead to an Orwellian Nightmare (2016)
41–50 of 107 posts
Re: John Cleese: Political Correctness Can Lead to an Orwellian Nightmare (2016)
#42Earlier quoted context omitted.
Who said it and what views they hold is important for distinguishing between what they technically said and what they actually said.
> Who said it and what views they hold is important for distinguishing between what they technically said and what they actually said. Would you mind clarifying the difference between the two for me? It sounds an awful lot like we're talking about thought crimes.
(not the person you were replying to, but)
"What they technically said" are the words that were actually used. "What they actually said" are the likely intended meaning, since (as I'm sure you would agree) any given moderately-complex sentence could have a number of interpretations, especially in different contexts.
"We must protect our people" is a sentence of five simple words, but has a radically different meaning when spoken by: * A warlord invading another country * A fighter resisting an invasion * A doctor speaking about medical treatment
In this case, the OP is probably making the (reasonable) point that a speaker who has previously made overblown claims about the racial composition of a country, and has demonstrated xenophobia, can be reasonably assumed to also be on sketchy evidential grounds in his claims about political correctness
Re: John Cleese: Political Correctness Can Lead to an Orwellian Nightmare (2016)
#43Earlier quoted context omitted.
Sure, I will have a shot at describing some change. I am a blond male who has a bit of a feminine hairstyle, which imho matches my body type. In the last month I have been called cancer whore ( Dutch: kankerhoer ) twice, this is new for me. However, young females have been called cancer whore for years now, and it is the political correctness which supresses discussion about this. Because that would be racist.
How is "I got mistaken for a woman because of my hairstyle" a racist thing?
It is about cancer whore, not the mistaken identity.
This term is only used by immigrants towards native women.
Re: John Cleese: Political Correctness Can Lead to an Orwellian Nightmare (2016)
#44Earlier quoted context omitted.
This is a little bit QED. If 'who said it' and 'what views do they hold' is more important than what they're actually saying, then we've become post-rational, and well on our way back to less open and enlightened culture.
It's not unreasonable to evaluate someone's comments in the context of their past statements on related matters.
Of course, it's called 'context'.
But arguing that previous miss-steps invalidate current arguments is irrational.
Re: John Cleese: Political Correctness Can Lead to an Orwellian Nightmare (2016)
#45Assuming the majority of hn is US-based, you folks have to understand that PC culture is often seen as a joke at best and an extension of typical American hypocrisy at worst (i.e. the usual double-speak and fake politeness that covers actual opinions and motivations). Sure, the PC/SJW wave is gaining momentum outside of the US as well, as the cultural influence is significant but it still remains an odd thing for most. Having to work with Americans used to be a chore because of how indirect they can be (not to mention the widespread tendency for workaholism) but now it’s becoming insufferable. Taking this “philosophy” to its logical conclusion, I cannot see how anyone can rationally deny we’re destined to a nightmare where you need to learn how to speak and act “the right way”, just like what happens in China. At least over there they have no pretenses about what they’re doing, and are not hiding behind supposedly noble ideas of equality and tolerance.
Make no mistake, American society is to a large extent Machiavellian in nature, especially the urbanite population and even more so the technocratic elite. Political Correctness is merely a tool of oppression and cynical exploitation at this point (just look at the Gillette ads if you still are unconvinced).
Re: John Cleese: Political Correctness Can Lead to an Orwellian Nightmare (2016)
#46I love John Cleese but he's gotten a bit "Old man yells at cloud" in his dotage IMO.
(Odd trivia: John Cleese is into Gurdjieff, or was.)
Look, I'm a left-leaning SJW type, but I'll stand by the idea that when "PC" goes beyond common courtesy and starts becoming an OOC mob-power thing, that's bad.
There's a point to be made about historical context: women weren't allowed to wear pants until about twenty minutes ago; Black folks in America have had a bit of a rough time, and many still do; everybody everywhere reverts to savage form when pushed outside their comfort zone.
Things are a bit rough here. Let's all keep calm and be nice to each other, we're all in this together.
In re: PC in comedy, specifically, I have what I call the "Lenny Bruce test". When you feel the urge to tell an off-color joke to a mixed audience stop and ask yourself first, "Am I Lenny Bruce?" Check carefully and be sure. If you're Lenny Bruce, go ahead with the joke, it will probably land, and if it doesn't, who cares? You're Lenny Bruce. However, if you check and find that you're not Lenny Bruce, carefully put the joke down and back away. It's probably not worth it.
(In case it's not clear, that was [an attempt at] a joke. Comedians should say wtf they want. Only the worst sort of person kicks a Fool.)
Re: John Cleese: Political Correctness Can Lead to an Orwellian Nightmare (2016)
#47Assuming the majority of hn is US-based, you folks have to understand that PC culture is often seen as a joke at best and an extension of typical American hypocrisy at worst (i.e. the usual double-speak and fake politeness that covers actual opinions and motivations). Sure, the PC/SJW wave is gaining momentum outside of the US as well, as the cultural influence is significant but it still remains an odd thing for mos…
> just look at the Gillette ads
Decrying political correctness and then complaining Gilette ran an ad with a message you didn't like, to the point of calling it oppression, is just... amazing. Is this satire?
Re: John Cleese: Political Correctness Can Lead to an Orwellian Nightmare (2016)
#48People need to realize that there's as much political correctness on the right as there is on the left.
Very true, and it has been around significantly longer as well. It's rooting in puritanism, and is pretty strict about moral decency. I suppose you could say the Left version is as well, but with a different idea of what moral means.
The difference, and the reason I think people are in a panic about the more recent left version, is the difference in enforcement. It feels like we're starting watching the Left take their turn at McCarthyism, but largely using technology instead of government.
Re: John Cleese: Political Correctness Can Lead to an Orwellian Nightmare (2016)
#49Most folks are in favor of some form of "political correctness", in the form of polite manners. The threshold should be different in comedy versus, say, the boardroom. It's not surprising Cleese, as a comedian, is focused on that aspect of things, but you can get equally Orwellian with fervent opposition to vaguely defined "PC" stuff too. People who lose their shit over "Happy Holidays", as an example.
Manners and tolerance are key. There are very few issues that cause me to "lose my shit", but as an observer, it seems to me that "Happy Holidays" is a response to people losing their shit over being wished Happiness in regards to a Holiday that they choose not to participate in.
I mostly try to stay out of the discussion because I think it's pretty much all ridiculous and a giant waste of time. Don't we he have more important things to be getting on with?
If somebody wished me Happy Hannukah, I would say "Thank You", even though I'm not Jewish. I'm not going to get my panties in a bunch over something like that.
Since I mostly fall into the WASP category (non-practicing I guess), perhaps I'm not qualified to talk about it since I've never actually been in the shoes of the minority, but I do have what I believe is evidence that I can bear careless words without "losing my shit":
My oldest daughter was born with Spina Bifida. Her legs are different, and not very strong. She can walk, but normally she uses crutches or a wheelchair. She is prone to falling without the crutches, and also with them. She's a great kid. It might happen sometimes that a person who has never been in our particular situation will compare her to "normal" kids. While I notice these things, I generally just let it slide. I know the intent is not malicious.
Even if someone says something like "Has she always been crippled?" (Yes it happens), I might politely mention that we don't really think of it that way, but I will certainly maintain composure, and I don't think I would lose a friend over it. Again, the person who says this most likely doesn't hate me, or despise her - they just don't relate to the particular issues that we are dealing with, and I can recognize this and accept it.
As you say, politeness and manners seem like a reasonable solution to most social problems from my perspective, but I guess a lot of folks disagree.
Re: John Cleese: Political Correctness Can Lead to an Orwellian Nightmare (2016)
#50[deleted]