Earlier quoted context omitted.
I, the author, was not seeking to show intent to discrimate. I as only showing the policy effectively did discriminate. In order to show intent I would need the statistics you mentioned but to show the effect the stats you mentioned are entirely irrelvant
I added my comment not to imply intentional discrimination, but as a slightly better 'base-rate' than the statistic you offered, which was African-Americans as a proportion of Americans. I personally think it is most likely that more of the money went to larger corporations than intended.
Black-Owned Businesses Received Less Than 2% of PPP Loans, White-Owned Got 83%
51–60 of 61 posts
Re: Black-Owned Businesses Received Less Than 2% of PPP Loans, White-Owned Got 83%
#52Earlier quoted context omitted.
I added my comment not to imply intentional discrimination, but as a slightly better 'base-rate' than the statistic you offered, which was African-Americans as a proportion of Americans. I personally think it is most likely that more of the money went to larger corporations than intended.
The correct base rate to use to determine 'effective' discrimintation (as intended or unintended consequence) is the general population.
I am not sure which of these metrics is most important, but I think comparing PPP recipient ownership to the general population is rather blunt, especially if it is the only metric offered.
Re: Black-Owned Businesses Received Less Than 2% of PPP Loans, White-Owned Got 83%
#53Earlier quoted context omitted.
The correct base rate to use to determine 'effective' discrimintation (as intended or unintended consequence) is the general population.
Well, it depends on your definition of effective discrimination; you could also argue that what matters most is how many employees of PPP-recipient companies were AA. Going another step, one might argue that what matters is the employment impact of PPP on different races. I am not sure which of these metrics is most important, but I think comparing PPP recipient ownership to the general population is rather blunt, es…
Re: Black-Owned Businesses Received Less Than 2% of PPP Loans, White-Owned Got 83%
#54If you're going to put together an inflammatory article the least you could do is dive a little deeper and answer the 'Why' question. Why did black-owned businesses receive less than 2% of PPP Loans?
I wrote the article - I don't think it is inflamatory. It is irrelevant if 0% of business owners are Black. The US Treasury (which controls the IRS, money printing and funds the government) should not abuse its power to favor a certain segment of the population. The government should not bail out private companies.
>The government should not bail out private companies.
Approximately 0 people came to that conclusion reading your blog, because you used a dishonest click-bait title at a time of racial sensitivity.
Re: Black-Owned Businesses Received Less Than 2% of PPP Loans, White-Owned Got 83%
#55If you're going to put together an inflammatory article the least you could do is dive a little deeper and answer the 'Why' question. Why did black-owned businesses receive less than 2% of PPP Loans?
It doesn't take that much guessing. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/10/business/minority-busines... > Racial discrimination in banking is outlawed on paper, but it continues in practice — often in subtle forms. In 2018, for instance, the National Community Reinvestment Coalition, a nonprofit organization that works with banks to increase the flow of private capital into poor and underserved communities, sent “mystery…
This is very similar reasoning to alien conspiracy theorists, who look at something in the night sky and assert "It can't be A, it can't be B, it can't be C, therefore it must be Aliens"
The author was also dishonest. They purposely framed their blog post in a way that would you lead you to this.
Re: Black-Owned Businesses Received Less Than 2% of PPP Loans, White-Owned Got 83%
#56Earlier quoted context omitted.
It doesn't take that much guessing. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/10/business/minority-busines... > Racial discrimination in banking is outlawed on paper, but it continues in practice — often in subtle forms. In 2018, for instance, the National Community Reinvestment Coalition, a nonprofit organization that works with banks to increase the flow of private capital into poor and underserved communities, sent “mystery…
You have no basis for linking those two instances. You have no basis to claim there was any intent of any discrimination in the loan program. You have no basis to claim there even was discrimination in the loan program. All those assumptions need evidence, and you just asserted that conclusion. This is very similar reasoning to alien conspiracy theorists, who look at something in the night sky and assert "It can't be…
That would be just crazy.
Re: Black-Owned Businesses Received Less Than 2% of PPP Loans, White-Owned Got 83%
#57Earlier quoted context omitted.
You have no basis for linking those two instances. You have no basis to claim there was any intent of any discrimination in the loan program. You have no basis to claim there even was discrimination in the loan program. All those assumptions need evidence, and you just asserted that conclusion. This is very similar reasoning to alien conspiracy theorists, who look at something in the night sky and assert "It can't be…
Yes, why should we link concrete evidence that minorities are discriminated against in banking with their access to a particular banking program? That would be just crazy.
You do nobody any good by claiming racism where there is none. In fact you do damage, the same way that hate crime hoaxes and false sexual assault allegations do damage to real hate crime and sexual assault victims.
It's the responsible thing to do.
And I'm not saying we shouldn't look for an explanation. The null-hypothesis is that these loans are allocated proportionally, so a deviation does require an explanation, which will probably be interesting, most likely multi-variate, and may include a component of discrimination. The nature of that discrimination may be different than what you assumed - so how are you supposed to fix it, if you were too lazy to actually dig to find the actual problem.
Why is that controversial?
[1] Truth be told, I actually see debt in a negative light. I haven't seen a lot of small business survive when starting with a bank loan - it's like you're setting yourself to fail because not only do you have business expenses, and not only did you way overestimate the sales you were going to do (a common trait of entrepreneurs), but also you have loan payments that drain your revenues. And those loans are usually personally guaranteed, so if your business tanks, you are still responsible for them. I wish debt was harder to come by across the board.
Re: Black-Owned Businesses Received Less Than 2% of PPP Loans, White-Owned Got 83%
#58Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes, why should we link concrete evidence that minorities are discriminated against in banking with their access to a particular banking program? That would be just crazy.
You can't do that because there could be alternative explanations in this specific case (like in every case), even in a world where, as you claim, certain minorities are discriminated against by banks and loans[1]. In such a world you need even more evidence because your biases are pushing in a specific direction and so it takes more work to be objective. You do nobody any good by claiming racism where there is none.…
There is racist discrimination in banking. This can be demonstrated. The burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that the PPP program is somehow magically immune to that discrimination.
Re: Black-Owned Businesses Received Less Than 2% of PPP Loans, White-Owned Got 83%
#59Earlier quoted context omitted.
You can't do that because there could be alternative explanations in this specific case (like in every case), even in a world where, as you claim, certain minorities are discriminated against by banks and loans[1]. In such a world you need even more evidence because your biases are pushing in a specific direction and so it takes more work to be objective. You do nobody any good by claiming racism where there is none.…
> You do nobody any good by claiming racism where there is none. There is racist discrimination in banking. This can be demonstrated. The burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that the PPP program is somehow magically immune to that discrimination.
Come on. You can't do to that. That's not how it works. The burden of proof is always on a positive claim. General negative claims are intrinsically unprovable. This is because for one, you've begged the question, and there is no level of evidence that you would accept or even list what you would accept as evidence that your conclusion is wrong.
More importantly, it is impossible to list every factor and modality of this discrimination (and you have to do that to prove a universal negative claim that there is no racial discrimination), because there is an infinite number of possibilities of this manifestation (i.e. what is the nature of this racist discrimination you're claiming?).
Here are some potential modalities for this 'racist discrimination'.
1) The program was designed with the intent to discriminate against certain minorities (and not others). 2) The program was not designed with the intent to discriminate, but certain factors had as a side-effect discriminating against certain minorities (and not others). 3) The program was not designed with the intent to discriminate and does not intrinsically discriminate, but the executors of this program intentionally discriminated against certain minorities (but not others) 4) The program was not designed with the intent to discriminate and does not intrinsically discriminate, and the executors of this program did not intentionally discriminated against certain minorities (but not others), but certain factors had a side-effect of discrimination. 5) The program and execution was not intrinsically discriminatory, but other structural factors led to discrimination. Factors such as the claim that minorities are discriminated in banking, or certain minorities being turned away from entrepreneurship by lack of role-models, or ... etc.
I can go on ... but each one is different and independent of the next and even within each one you have countless of potential mechanism. For example, if the claim is the program was intentionally designed to be discriminatory, you have unpack that and provide the mechanism for that. Is it Congress that did that? Is the White House? Which statue was discriminatory, etc.. And there are countless other potential avenues for discrimination. Each kind of discrimination calls for different approach to a solution. You're not honest when you shift the burden of proof like you did.
Re: Black-Owned Businesses Received Less Than 2% of PPP Loans, White-Owned Got 83%
#60Earlier quoted context omitted.
> You do nobody any good by claiming racism where there is none. There is racist discrimination in banking. This can be demonstrated. The burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that the PPP program is somehow magically immune to that discrimination.
>The burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that the PPP program is somehow magically immune to that discrimination. Come on. You can't do to that. That's not how it works. The burden of proof is always on a positive claim. General negative claims are intrinsically unprovable. This is because for one, you've begged the question, and there is no level of evidence that you would accept or even list what you would acc…
The positive claim here is "demonstrable, long documented racist discrimination in the banking system does not affect the PPP program within it".