Chicago Police Department shuts down its arrest API • Hacker News Board

Re: Chicago Police Department shuts down its arrest API

#251

Post by lambertsimnel » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 6:59 AM UTC

silo2020 wrote: post #124

pjc50 wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the police federation and ACPO perform similar political functions. At least we have the IPCC which sometimes works. (We also used to have a paramilitary organization with close ties to a police force that went around murdering dissidents, but we disbanded the Royal Ulster Constabulary. And, surprisingly, the full tanks and snipers in the streets civil war wasn't quite as deadly as 80s Detroit)

Police in the UK are prohibited from taking any form of industrial action - so the Federation does not have the ability to create disruption (to forcibly get their way) in the way Police Unions in North America can (and frequently do). The Federation represents officers up to Chief Inspector, the Association of Police Superintendents represents more senior officers, but below Chief Officer rank. ACPO is for Chief Pol…

British police officers might be prohibited from taking industrial action, but in 2004 many firearms officers protested by refusing to carry out their usual duties: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/3973261.stm

Re: Chicago Police Department shuts down its arrest API

#252

Post by DaiPlusPlus » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 7:03 AM UTC

jakelazaroff wrote: post #188

thaumasiotes wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We see that all the time. You can read articles in major newspapers about the "rubber rooms" where teachers who can't be fired -- but who certainly also can't be put in front of a class -- are required to spend their workdays.

Why can’t they be fired? AFAIK, tenure generally does not protect teachers who do grossly illegal acts, such as assaulting a student.

US teacher salaries are abysmal. When education funding gets cut the school boards the unions successfully negotiate stronger employment protections (after all, if a job pays poorly you need to attract employees some other way, such as good PTO, benefits, or in this case: a job for life).

It’s also entirely possible that even without the unions, the school boards don’t want to get rid of bad teachers simply because they’re already, and chronically, understaffed.

Re: Chicago Police Department shuts down its arrest API

#253

Post by MaximumYComb » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 7:11 AM UTC

save_ferris wrote: post #6

It's crazy to me that in 2020, there isn't comprehensive, mandatory Federal tracking of police-involved shootings. There's no reason that this data shouldn't be mandated to be aggregated and researched, other than to continue propagating a culture of secrecy. From the FBI's Use-of-Force data collection site[0]: > Is it mandatory for law enforcement agencies to contribute to this data collection? > The FBI has no lega…

It's crazy to me that in 2020 a first world city with a 2.7 million population has 80 shootings with at least 17 deaths in a single weekend. All forms of violence, including police violence, would drop if America managed to bring its gun addiction under control.

Re: Chicago Police Department shuts down its arrest API

#254

Post by dredmorbius » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 8:34 AM UTC

mgleason_3 wrote: post #93

save_ferris wrote: post #6

It's crazy to me that in 2020, there isn't comprehensive, mandatory Federal tracking of police-involved shootings. There's no reason that this data shouldn't be mandated to be aggregated and researched, other than to continue propagating a culture of secrecy. From the FBI's Use-of-Force data collection site[0]: > Is it mandatory for law enforcement agencies to contribute to this data collection? > The FBI has no lega…

NPR's Planet Money just released a podcast titled: "Police Unions and Civilian deaths". Some of the notable quotes include: * Starting roughly in the late '50s, Rob says, state governments began allowing police officers to collectively bargain - in other words, to join unions. This is where we found a really remarkable and really horrible result....after officers gained access to collective bargaining rights ... ther…

https://www.npr.org/2020/06/03/869176943/police-unions-and-c...

Re: Chicago Police Department shuts down its arrest API

#255

Post by grasshopperpurp » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 10:25 AM UTC

heavyset_go wrote: post #162

_bxg1 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a question of tradeoffs between professional accountability and improved working conditions in a given field, based on factors like how bad things can get in that field without accountability, how well (or poorly) employees are currently treated and paid, how likely employees are to take advantage of unaccountability, etc. People very much care about accountability when it comes to law enforcement, because compa…

> And police aren't exactly underpaid either. To drive this point home, the median salary before overtime and bonuses is $105,106/year for cops[1], and with overtime, cops can earn over $250,000/year[2]. The median salary for software engineers in the same state is 10% lower than the $105k police salary before overtime and bonuses. [1] https://www.nj.com/news/2017/05/how_much_is_the_median_cop_s... [2] https://www.nj…

Side point: I think it's a bad idea to let cops work OT. I understand that preventing OT would create logistical issues, but I think they're solvable, and for the safety of everyone - including police - I think we should want officers to be as clear-headed as possible.

Re: Chicago Police Department shuts down its arrest API

#256

Post by ryanbrunner » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 11:27 AM UTC

falcrist wrote: post #234

vkou wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The politicians you elect, likewise, have no obligation to actually follow through on their campaign promises.

In the case of politicians, you can simply vote them out next election. Board positions can be lifetime appointments.

This feels like quibbling. In both cases, the mechanism proposed as an alternative to collective bargaining is wildly unrealistic.

With a corporation, you need to buy a controlling interest of shares. With the "voting as collective bargaining" approach for public sector employees, you have a chance once in a while (depends where you live, but 4-5 years in most places) to try and convince a plurality of the overall population that the concerns of your profession outweigh the many, many other considerations people have in choosing who they vote for.

Either way, both options are not realistically achievable by nearly any union (ironically, I could see police as one exception - "tough on crime" policies, which are usually favourable to police unions, tend to be popular among voters, at least up until June 2020).

Re: Chicago Police Department shuts down its arrest API

#257

Post by jryle70 » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 11:59 AM UTC

baddox wrote: post #243

fredophile wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some services are more important than others. If teachers go on strike kids miss some school; if nurses go on strike people die. The military fits into the "people die" category in terms of likely consequences from a strike. Edit: just to be clear, I don't mean to imply that teachers aren't important, just that the immediate consequences of them all missing work is less severe than some other occupations.

Do you really think that more people would die if the US military went on strike? Besides, the US military already has a mechanism to force people to work for the military.

Not really hard to find examples of this, isn't it?

National Guard are mobilized all the time during crisis such as Katrina or the ongoing covinavirus pandemic.

US military was the single largest contributor to the response effort to the 2010 Haiti earthquake [0]

They were also heavily involved in the relief operation in response to the 2015 Nepal earthquake [1]

[0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Unified_Response [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Sahayogi_Haat

Re: Chicago Police Department shuts down its arrest API

#258

Post by imtringued » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 12:38 PM UTC

mgleason_3 wrote: post #93

save_ferris wrote: post #6

It's crazy to me that in 2020, there isn't comprehensive, mandatory Federal tracking of police-involved shootings. There's no reason that this data shouldn't be mandated to be aggregated and researched, other than to continue propagating a culture of secrecy. From the FBI's Use-of-Force data collection site[0]: > Is it mandatory for law enforcement agencies to contribute to this data collection? > The FBI has no lega…

NPR's Planet Money just released a podcast titled: "Police Unions and Civilian deaths". Some of the notable quotes include: * Starting roughly in the late '50s, Rob says, state governments began allowing police officers to collectively bargain - in other words, to join unions. This is where we found a really remarkable and really horrible result....after officers gained access to collective bargaining rights ... ther…

Not being protected from prosecution doesn't stop cops from engaging in self defense. If you genuinely think you are in danger as a cop you are willing to break the law to survive and accept being fired as a consequence. Protection from prosecution means there is no consequence to "premature self defense". If a citizen is perceived to possess a weapon but does not draw or fire it the cop still has an alibi that can be used to justify pulling the trigger.

I have seen a video where four cops randomly shot a man with a tazer. That man had no intention of escaping. The excessive use of police force served no purpose. It didn't make the job safer.

Re: Chicago Police Department shuts down its arrest API

#259

Post by DuskStar » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 2:21 PM UTC

DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #252

jakelazaroff wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why can’t they be fired? AFAIK, tenure generally does not protect teachers who do grossly illegal acts, such as assaulting a student.

US teacher salaries are abysmal. When education funding gets cut the school boards the unions successfully negotiate stronger employment protections (after all, if a job pays poorly you need to attract employees some other way, such as good PTO, benefits, or in this case: a job for life). It’s also entirely possible that even without the unions, the school boards don’t want to get rid of bad teachers simply because t…

US teacher salaries aren't nearly so bad as you're thinking. Median is around $60k, which compares favorably to the median household income of $59k - and teachers get better benefits, too.

Yes, it's not tech-level pay. But it's not exactly "abysmal" either.

Re: Chicago Police Department shuts down its arrest API

#260

Post by falcrist » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 5:47 PM UTC

ryanbrunner wrote: post #256

falcrist wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the case of politicians, you can simply vote them out next election. Board positions can be lifetime appointments.

This feels like quibbling. In both cases, the mechanism proposed as an alternative to collective bargaining is wildly unrealistic. With a corporation, you need to buy a controlling interest of shares. With the "voting as collective bargaining" approach for public sector employees, you have a chance once in a while (depends where you live, but 4-5 years in most places) to try and convince a plurality of the overall po…

With voting, you don't actually have to convince a plurality. You only have to convince a small percentage of the population (often <5%) to sway an election.