Trump had a weird, forced rally in Tulsa during COVID and now half of Okalahoma state is gone. I'm not that into conspiracies but is somewhat notable.
U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation
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Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation
#842>"The decision means that for the first time much of eastern Oklahoma is legally considered reservation land. More than 1.8 million people live in the land at issue, including roughly 400,000 in Tulsa, Oklahoma’s second-largest city."
[...]
>"Unless changes are made, tribe members who live within the boundaries would now become exempt from certain state obligations such as paying state taxes, while certain Native Americans found guilty in state courts would be able to challenge their convictions on jurisdictional grounds."
Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation
#843Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Many people came to the US long after the Trail of Tears. Are they responsible [...] Yes, the whole point of being citizens is taking responsibility collectively as a populace for the actions of the state. We collectively owe interest on the national debt. We still must abide by international treaties signed and ratified by long-dead representatives. We follow a constitution written long ago, and if we want to chan…
It’s one thing to be obligated to follow the law of the country. But it’s another to be assigned moral guilt for things you have no involvement in.
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Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation
#844Earlier quoted context omitted.
>What is the just thing to do? Sweep it under the rug and act like it didn't matter? That has stuck with me and I've been thinking. But I think I got an idea. Maybe we should educate our young about the past, where we came from (fled state sponsored religious persecution to a land that was free). We could also teach about the mistakes that were made, you know, like how we purchased conquered and displaced refugees fr…
How does this solve a legal land dispute that has been going on for generations? "We'll mention you in childrens' text books" doesn't do justice.
It doesn't, but I was referring to your more broader statement of "The nation of today is not isolated from it's past." Given the current climate of the last two months, it just reeks of dogma.
Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation
#845Earlier quoted context omitted.
> the Mohawk have claimed a large chunk of New York Anyone can claim anything they want. What is relevant here, and why this case was decided the way it was, is that the federal government and the tribe entered into a legally binding, clear contract. Lands east of the Mississippi in exchange for a large piece of what is now Oklahoma, in perpetuity. And Congress never explicitly reneged on that contract. Ergo, it stil…
I imagine Congress is going to pass a law the ensures that Tulsa is not on part of the reservation. ...because that would be ludicrous. The Supreme Court is essentially forcing Congress to take a stance.
This is what Justice Thomas has been doing for a long time now (to a fault), and Gorsuch has also taken up: Congress, do your job rather than make the judicial branch perform extralegal bench activism.
Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation
#846Earlier quoted context omitted.
Who is this 'we' you reference? Many people came to the US long after the Trail of Tears. Are they responsible for crimes committed on Native Americans before they or their ancestors/families arrived in a recognized (at the time of arrival) Sovereign Country. Would be interested in your justification for holding citizens of today's US responsible for an event that happened more than 100 years ago, before they lived o…
> Many people came to the US long after the Trail of Tears. Are they responsible [...] Yes, the whole point of being citizens is taking responsibility collectively as a populace for the actions of the state. We collectively owe interest on the national debt. We still must abide by international treaties signed and ratified by long-dead representatives. We follow a constitution written long ago, and if we want to chan…
Maybe 2 discussions are here, one of legal/fiscal and another of social culpability.
Absolutely, we have the process to modify laws or treaties we find no longer to suit the modern country. We try to move forward with better laws or fairer treaties, everyday. We as living citizens have the responsibility to improve today's laws. (As I hope we do regarding police conduct, to be topical.)
If I take your statement "...Citizens is taking responsibility collectively as a populace for the actions of the state." I would have to accept that my ancestors escaping persecution in another country and coming to this one, that I am morally bound to take on the social dogmas of the United States for crimes I did not commit or do not endorse today. I don't believe this to be correct or fair, but this is my opinion.
It seems like the historical weight of this country (or maybe any country) will crush it under past social deeds that are irremediable. Unfortunately, we can not correct the past, but we should heed it, to not make similar mistakes. If there is no way to not be guilty for the crimes of the state then perhaps we should abandon the state.
Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation
#847I found the conclusion compelling. I haven't yet had enough time this morning to read the dissent thoughtfully. https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/19pdf/18-9526_9okb.pdf "The federal government promised the Creek a reservation in perpetuity. Over time, Congress has diminished that reservation. It has sometimes restricted and other times expanded the Tribe’s authority. But Congress has never withdrawn the promised…
Wait, so congress can throw away promises at its whims that was supposed to last until perpetuity? And SC will be fine with that as long as promise was thrown away explicitly?
SCOTUS does not rule on your second question. The first is a well-known flaw in American government, which Gorsuch quashed with his opinion. Effectively, it reads: Congress, this is your problem, not ours.
Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation
#848Earlier quoted context omitted.
Originalism is degenerate legal philosophy. Textualism is all that is valid. We will look back at some of those ridiculous uncited rulings that speak about “how the writers felt given the time” as foolishness.
Is there a more textual judge than Gorsuch?
Easily Breyer.
Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation
#849Earlier quoted context omitted.
And, so, in keeping with Gorsuch's minimalism. No re-interpretation of existing law, which makes the right happy (or did, until recently, I guess).
Sometimes I wish the SCOTUS would reinterpret things that were obviously wrong... but I'd much rather have the SCOTUS interpret the law as it was intended, and have Congress fix the actual problems with the law.
>> obviously wrong
Who can say what this is?
Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation
#850Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Many people came to the US long after the Trail of Tears. Are they responsible [...] Yes, the whole point of being citizens is taking responsibility collectively as a populace for the actions of the state. We collectively owe interest on the national debt. We still must abide by international treaties signed and ratified by long-dead representatives. We follow a constitution written long ago, and if we want to chan…
It’s one thing to be obligated to follow the law of the country. But it’s another to be assigned moral guilt for things you have no involvement in.
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