One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud • Hacker News Board

Re: One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

#121

Post by quadrifoliate » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 2:14 AM UTC

kbenson wrote: post #67

quadrifoliate wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's even simpler than that, the US has a codified system of nepotism in place called legacy admissions, which has been in place for several decades [1]. > In a deposition, Rakesh Khurana, dean of the college, said a legacy preference can foster another kind of diversity: placing people with deep Harvard experience alongside those without it. They refer to nepotism as "deep Harvard experience", that's the only differ…

I view the legacy stuff as a but more nuanced. Universities want to admit people that really want to go there, and that will increase their prestige later through some combination of espousing the benefits of that school, becoming famous, or becoming successful. It's not hard to see how the legacy systems tick a few of these boxes automatically, making those candidates seem slightly better than others (if nothing els…

More nuanced nepotism is...nepotism. You're basically saying that whether or not your parents went to some school should positively influence as much as one-fifth of the consideration of whether you could go to a school or not.

That is, if you scored this in a rubric, some kid whose parents went to Harvard would score 20 and I would score 0. That is wrong on a fundamental level. It's a bit like anti-affirmative action.

I am fine with this system as it stands. However, it is wildly inconsistent with the pearl-clutching top comment (I know, not you) spewing stuff about the "Western sense of morality".

Re: One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

#122

Post by ThrowawayR2 » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 2:14 AM UTC

dang wrote: post #97

leafboi wrote: post #21

What's nuts about this how tons of people from all levels of government/society participated in this conspiracy. It says a lot about the general attitude of Chinese people. (I'm chinese, btw)

Please don't post nationalistic flamebait to HN, even if you're personally of that nation. It starts flamewars either way, and we don't want those here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

I don't think it's really flamebait to make that observation. There genuinely are significant cultural differences regarding what's regarded as fair play between various regions in the world. That needs to be understood, particularly among readers of HN who, as a demographic, work with co-workers, contractors, or businesses across borders more often than the average population.

Re: One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

#123

Post by ss2003 » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 2:15 AM UTC

KSteffensen wrote: post #120

creato wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It’s just that the money went to a third party instead of the college in the scandalous cases. That's a pretty huge difference. Letting someone donate money in exchange for admission smells bad, but if the donation is larger than the cost, they made more room for others than they occupied themselves. If a third party captures the "donation", that's just a roundabout form of theft/embezzlement.

Well, ok I guess you can argue that, but can we then get rid of the notion that the US is a meritocracy?

If you aren't one those that benefit from this you already know it is not.

Re: One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

#124

Post by nooneknowswhy » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 2:24 AM UTC

thewarrior wrote: post #45

zozin wrote: post #37

This is enraging. Identity theft in the United States can be a headache, sure, but in most cases the financial institutions are the ones taking the brunt of the damage, and even that is probably covered by some sort of insurance scheme. This woman had her entire life stripped away from her, not to mention making her doubt her own abilities by implying she “failed” the exam. How do these people live with themselves, e…

The western sense of morality didn’t stop the admissions scandals to all top western universities like Harvard Stanford and so on. Chinese universities as far as I know don’t have things like institutionalized legacy admissions. I’d like people to reconsider the view that western societies are somehow inherently purer or less corrupt. Often it takes different forms. This can be seen in the way sanctions are imposed f…

When Google took $500M fine and $300M to share holders for Rogue Pharma Ads. While the counterpart in China --- Baidu, with rogue hospital ads which lead to the death of a young man. LOST NOTHING.

Laws are enforced differently throughout the world. But it's not enforced in CCP controlled China for certain groups.

Re: One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

#125

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 2:29 AM UTC

Retric wrote: post #91

thaumasiotes wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Official VIP students... wow that’s horrifyingly corrupt. Clearly admissions is also letting things slide, just with less official backing. I do not think your conclusion follows from your premise.

You just said: “There are ways of getting in to a university without passing the gaokao threshold that would ordinarily be required.” VIP students is a way to communicate across the university. Otherwise professors have no way of knowing who they need to give extra leniency to. I know collage professors at several schools and we really have nothing widespread like that.

[deleted]

Re: One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

#126

Post by east2west » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 3:06 AM UTC

thewarrior wrote: post #104

thaumasiotes wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chinese universities do have this concept -- certain students are marked VIP, so that professors will know. But the concept of granting admission based on such status, as opposed to extending special treatment to an admitted student, is very much muted. There are ways of getting in to a university without passing the gaokao threshold that would ordinarily be required. But those generally involve receiving a point boo…

China as a civilization takes the notion of a merit based on examinations very seriously. They pioneered this system hundreds of years before anywhere else in the world. Cheating may exist but in terms of valuing meritocracy China has it as deeply ingrained as the west.

On paper, yes, China takes official examination rather seriously. In realty, a saying in China goes: as long as there are exams, there are cheaters.

An ancient Chinese source estimates that 20% to 30% participants of imperial exams are imposters.

Endless examples of high ranking officials pave way for their descendants to succeed as top performers. A renown prime minister invited the chief examiner to his library, where he had removed all reading materials except a copy of an essay his son would write for the upcoming exam. The chief examiner was left waiting forever, so he was forced to read the only reading material within reach. When he later read it again as part of national exam, he recognized it immediately and made the the son of the prime minister NO. 1. This only came out because the emperor did not want PM's family become too powerful, but merely demoted the son from NO. 1 to NO. 3.

Not unlike elite institutions in the West, publicly the imperial exam system was lauded but a system of "donation" co-existed to fill official posts. This is a legal way to buy one's way into officialdom. "Legacy" entry was also available, not unlike today's system in China or elsewhere. Human nature prevails everywhere.

Re: One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

#127

Post by nouveaux » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 3:09 AM UTC

thewarrior wrote: post #105

nouveaux wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just as many Chinese citizens are proud of their country and culture, there are lots of people in the US who are proud of their country and culture. Are there lots of hypocrites in the United States? Yes. Are there lots of naive people? I mean people still love Trump now while the rest of the world laughs at us. The people in both societies are flawed so let's put that aside. If we look at both systems (and not as in…

China is not a democracy. However the notion that Chinese culture is okay with despotism and tyranny is again a limited one. The Mandate of Heaven is what gives a ruler in China the right to rule. This is not an inherent and automatic right like the divine right of kings. If a ruler is unable to deliver prosperity and justice it’s completely justified for the ruler to be overthrown. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mand…

As a Chinese person, I totally understand that Chinese culture is not ok with tyranny. China's rise to riches can only be done with the efficiencies of a dictatorship. In order to understand China, you must understand China's poverty and shame from foreign rule.

With China's new digital surveillance system, it will be pretty hard to overthrow any dictator. China's control on news and media will ensure loyalty from a large percentage of the population. People who were critical of China's initial Covid response were silenced. Some disappeared. I guarantee you many people of Wuhan did not think that there was prosperity and justice.

Western democracy is being tested but I think the United States constitution is holding up pretty well. Today's Supreme Court ruling was 7-2 against Trump, with both justices nominated by Trump voting against Trump. The Supreme Court is focused on being impartial, so the navigated a ruling that will only release Trump's tax returns after the election.

"We reaffirm that principle today and hold that the President is neither absolutely immune from state criminal subpoenas seeking his private papers nor entitled to a heightened standard of need." - Justice Roberts

The Supreme Court, 9-0 affirmed that the President is not above the law. This ruling will be executed on up and down the government chain. Trump wants to build a wall but he can't. Trump wants to deport DACA immigrants and he can't. While Trump did accomplish a lot for Republicans, the most egregious actions were prevented. Ultimately, Trump's damage can be limited and contained.

I agree that the US does not know how to handle foreign interference through social media. Trump seems like he's allowing it to happen. I'm reserving judgement till the next president gets involved. I also agree that Iran sanctions from Trump is criminal.

Ultimately, no system is perfect. United states and Western democracies are designed to limit the damage, which in turn can limit upsides. Dictatorships are efficient but can easily run afoul. The hope is that we can all choose the system we prefer.

Re: One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

#128

Post by wolco » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 3:09 AM UTC

thewarrior wrote: post #105

nouveaux wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just as many Chinese citizens are proud of their country and culture, there are lots of people in the US who are proud of their country and culture. Are there lots of hypocrites in the United States? Yes. Are there lots of naive people? I mean people still love Trump now while the rest of the world laughs at us. The people in both societies are flawed so let's put that aside. If we look at both systems (and not as in…

China is not a democracy. However the notion that Chinese culture is okay with despotism and tyranny is again a limited one. The Mandate of Heaven is what gives a ruler in China the right to rule. This is not an inherent and automatic right like the divine right of kings. If a ruler is unable to deliver prosperity and justice it’s completely justified for the ruler to be overthrown. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mand…

"Western democracy is really being torn at the seams with Trump and Brexit"

Really, torn at the seams? Brexit is going fine and now with covid it might work out better in the longrun.

America likes strong leaders. Trump isn't creating a new divide he is navigating the existing fault lines.

More importantly:

China forcing birth control on Uighurs to suppress population: (source AP)

Are you aware of this? What is your,opinion on those events?

Re: One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

#129

Post by wolco » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 3:12 AM UTC

thewarrior wrote: post #74

uedue828e wrote: post #69

[flagged]

Could you elaborate what the differences are so we all can get a clearer picture ? Is your claim that western civilization and values are superior to all others ? Does China for eg kidnap people from other countries on secret flights and then water board them on an island outside of all countries laws ? Did China blanket an entire foreign country in carcinogenic chemicals that caused birth defects for generations ? W…

Things like not forcing birth control on a minority population gives them the high ground.

www.aljazeera.com China forcing birth control on Uighurs to suppress population: AP

Re: One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

#130

Post by albntomat0 » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 3:18 AM UTC

toast0 wrote: post #73

viklove wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like AP testing, which is required for most competitive institutions.

My understanding is AP test results are usually used to grant credit for college classes, and not as an admission requirement? I guess it could be a factor in admissions, too, but I recall mostly people doing it to get a bit of a head start towards graduation, rather than to get a better shot at admission. (People passing AP tests are likely to get in _somewhere_, even if not their first choice)

When I applied to college (recently, not that recently), AP test results were definitely used as part of admissions, in a similar fashion to SAT IIs.