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U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

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651–660 of 1001 posts

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#651
post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah yes, unlike cities which house only the most pure of thought.

This is an "affirming the consequent" logical fallacy. My sentence says nothing about the virtue or vice of cities. I'm responding to "Some people don't like the rural states". Almost no one dislikes rural states for their natural beauty. They dislike them for the people. Whether that dislike is morally wrong, or whether they should also dislike urban areas is irrelevant to my claim. All I was observing is that the p…

And _your_ fallacy was https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/composition-division

Yes, I know. Mine is https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/tu-quoque

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#652
post #597

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you're referencing is probably a "prescriptive easement" and is legal (depending on your jurisdiction). If your jurisdiction does not have "adverse possession" or "prescriptive easement" laws, you can probably tear that fence down or do whatever else you want with it. (IANAL and please just talk to your neighbors first!) None of this is related, either legally or in spirit, with the sentence you cited. The cited…

I agree with you on the legal aspects, but the mind-bending bit is that the neighbor's actions -- at the time -- were not legal (because no, it is not legal to build structures on someone else's property without their permission), but because it was left to sit that way for some period of time, the result of those actions -- a de facto redrawing of property lines -- has become the new legal status. Which, honestly, s…

As I understand it, there is a similar situation legally with regard to copyrights, trademarks, etc. If you don't enforce them, eventually, they are no longer considered valid. Note that IANAL and I haven't investigated this in depth.

I think the idea is that most people aren't computers processing laws as if they were code; most humans have to primarily go by what they see happening around them in order to decide what is ok. If they see lots of cars going down a road, eventually they assume that it is public property, even if they never check the public records to see if it is. Similarly with lots of other things.

But, crucially to the Supreme Court's majority decision, you have to have a law saying that this is so (for real estate or intellectual property or whatever), for it to be so, and Congress never did that.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#653

We need to end the reservation system. No good will come of this system in the long term. We can end it either by making the reservations explicitly new nations (either fully independent or with protectorate status, like Micronesia or Palau), or they need to be integrated fully into the United States. In the long run, separate countries in one system does not really work (and yes, the states and feds are overlapping…

Who should decide to have a border or the other option that you are proposing? I guess if you want to be fair, you need to let the Native American nations to decide, and what if they decide to create multiple nations in the middle of the not-any-more-united States?

> I guess if you want to be fair, you need to let the Native American nations to decide, and what if they decide to create multiple nations in the middle of the not-any-more-united States?

The United States should decide... either as a constitutional amendment or as a popular vote. If the tribes have input, that should be taken into account. But it's not like Native Americans have any more right to exist than any other person born in the United States.

In general, states can enforce their borders, but it's safe to say that the Native Americans failed at that considerably, and those wars have concluded and the USA has firmly won. This is not a value judgement, or a statement of what should have happened. It is simply observation.

Ultimately, the tribal system is a compromise to make things work as they are now. But, in the long term, this is never going to work out. Like I said, there is nothing good to come of this. At some point, some generation will have to bite the bullet and allow separation or pressure integration. This system we've created which encourages pseudo separation and shies away from integration really can't work out in the long run. It will lead to factionalism, in-fighting and eventually war or genocide.

A better solution would be to put in place incentives for Indians to leave the reservations and integrate with American society, with the eventual goal to privatize native lands or to make them public like any other land. Again... the system we have now, to hold land into perpetuity will not work.

Ultimately, tribal belonging is currently tied to how 'pure' one's blood is. This is the last vestige of racial preference in this country. These sorts of things invariably lead to bad outcomes in the long run.

Is it sad that cultures die? Yeah, perhaps, but cultures have always died. Thus is the way of the world. As each one dies, more will be formed. Oh well, times change.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#654
post #519

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I agree. That could definitely get into some really sticky territory. I guess the other side is that a malevolent court could contrive those interpretations, and Congress would be only be able rectify the situation going forward. I don't know what the best solution is, but I guess I trust the Supreme Court more than I trust Congress. Still, it seems weird that Congress wouldn't get a say in determining what the…

>I guess I trust the Supreme Court more than I trust Congress It's quite a damning indictment of US-style democracy that people trust a small cabal of unelected lifetime appointees without any meaningful oversight, over a larger pool of democratically elected officials.

The court is supposed to be exactly as you describe as a counterweight to legislators affected by vicissitudes of an electorate every 2 or 6 years. This is a feature, not a bug, of the American republic.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#655

The numbers should really be 100% instead of 25% and 10%. Much has been stolen from them.

Didn't they steal that land from the tribes before them?

I am not an expert in Native American history but the Creek Nation are almost certainly not the originally inhabitants.

This is one of my biggest issues with stuff like this. Why should the Creek Nation get this land and not the tribe that lived there previously? Why not the tribe before that tribe?

Americans often did not treat the natives well but this is an issue with all countries. It was quite common for Natives to kill other tribes and take over that area. It sucks but that is how a country is formed.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#656

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's odd. My neighbor built his house on the side of his property and inadvertently built it 5 feet over onto the neighbor's property. The way they worked it out was that my neighbor had to buy that portion of his neighbor's property. The alternative was to move (ie, destroy) the building.

this particular law varies wildly by jurisdiction

Also by how quickly it is discovered/brought to court

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#657
post #596
post #587

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is Congress empowered to clarify the meaning of its own past statements? I don't think so. The statute is the actual text that is passed by both houses of Congress and signed by the President. Congress does not have the power to "interpret". It only has the power to pass a new statute, which can only be in effect as of the date of its passage (when the President signs it). Anything Congress says or does that does n…

But what if the court were being intentionally obtuse and kept interpreting laws in face of the facts and the intent of congress? You need to consider this as something less brazen could be used to undermine congress' authority. The judicial branch de facto has the most power of any branch in the US. The positions are not elected.

Federal judges can be impeached

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#658
post #596
post #587

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is Congress empowered to clarify the meaning of its own past statements? I don't think so. The statute is the actual text that is passed by both houses of Congress and signed by the President. Congress does not have the power to "interpret". It only has the power to pass a new statute, which can only be in effect as of the date of its passage (when the President signs it). Anything Congress says or does that does n…

But what if the court were being intentionally obtuse and kept interpreting laws in face of the facts and the intent of congress? You need to consider this as something less brazen could be used to undermine congress' authority. The judicial branch de facto has the most power of any branch in the US. The positions are not elected.

> But what if the court were being intentionally obtuse and kept interpreting laws in face of the facts and the intent of congress?

This would apply for whichever organisation is responsible for interpreting the existing law: there has to be some such organisation, with significant political power: especially where this power is centralised as in the US Supreme Court, rather than distributed.

Giving the executive this power, of unlimited re-interpretation the words of its previous incarnations, seems unwise and worse. Should congress be able to say about the negotations of its predecessors, "ah, in retrospect the previous session didn't mean it like that"?

This is recognised as judicial independence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judicial_independence#Theory_o...

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#659

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Didn't they steal that land from the tribes before them?

I am not an expert in Native American history but the Creek Nation are almost certainly not the originally inhabitants. This is one of my biggest issues with stuff like this. Why should the Creek Nation get this land and not the tribe that lived there previously? Why not the tribe before that tribe? Americans often did not treat the natives well but this is an issue with all countries. It was quite common for Natives…

>Why should the Creek Nation get this land and not the tribe that lived there previously? Why not the tribe before that tribe?

Because the US government entered into a treaty with the Creek Nation, who were the inhabitants of that land at that time.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#660
post #597

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you on the legal aspects, but the mind-bending bit is that the neighbor's actions -- at the time -- were not legal (because no, it is not legal to build structures on someone else's property without their permission), but because it was left to sit that way for some period of time, the result of those actions -- a de facto redrawing of property lines -- has become the new legal status. Which, honestly, s…

As I understand it, there is a similar situation legally with regard to copyrights, trademarks, etc. If you don't enforce them, eventually, they are no longer considered valid. Note that IANAL and I haven't investigated this in depth. I think the idea is that most people aren't computers processing laws as if they were code; most humans have to primarily go by what they see happening around them in order to decide wh…

True for trademarks since by definition it’s a claim on some unique usage of a word or mark. Not the case (anymore, as of 1976) for copyright, at least in the US.
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