One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud • Hacker News Board

Re: One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

#101

Post by jariel » Thu, Jul 09, 2020, 11:22 PM UTC

topspin wrote: post #7

DevKoala wrote: post #2

This story reminds me of the stories that were common on my country of origin in South America. We had free high level education, but there was a system rigged to preserve nepotism. I was in Russia for the World Cup in 2018 and heard the same crap.

The US has evolved a similar rigging for our privileged. We supply various obscure sports accolades that can be purchased for the children of wealthy families to obtain admission to our leading universities. Unfortunately our schemes have also been exposed and a number of people are being prosecuted. So for the moment one must resort to investing in rather costly facility construction or similar expansion projects wh…

"We supply various obscure sports accolades that can be purchased for the children of wealthy families to obtain admission to our leading universities."

? I don't really think this is the mechanism.

When major donors, who are alumni and part of the institution, ask for a favour to have a slot for their kid ... to me that may seem 'unfair' but it's also above bar if the school wants to do that and I have no problem with it so long as it doesn't take up a huge share of any particular intake.

Re: One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

#102

Post by leafboi » Thu, Jul 09, 2020, 11:39 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #97

leafboi wrote: post #21

What's nuts about this how tons of people from all levels of government/society participated in this conspiracy. It says a lot about the general attitude of Chinese people. (I'm chinese, btw)

Please don't post nationalistic flamebait to HN, even if you're personally of that nation. It starts flamewars either way, and we don't want those here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

This wasn't flame bait. It was just an observation. Please realize that it was other people who decided to flame. Just because someone decides to have a bad attitude doesn't make my post flame bait.

I made a general observation about corruption and culture, other people decided to respond to it in a bad way.

If this type of comment isn't allowed on HN it's a form of censorship. Basically I can't say anything negative about a culture or a country because it's classified as flame bait.

This is similar to the way the CCP practices censorship in China. People in my country basically can't say anything negative about it. Thank you for perpetuating that sentiment here on HN.

Re: One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

#103

Post by Tostino » Thu, Jul 09, 2020, 11:40 PM UTC

Retric wrote: post #91

thaumasiotes wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Official VIP students... wow that’s horrifyingly corrupt. Clearly admissions is also letting things slide, just with less official backing. I do not think your conclusion follows from your premise.

You just said: “There are ways of getting in to a university without passing the gaokao threshold that would ordinarily be required.” VIP students is a way to communicate across the university. Otherwise professors have no way of knowing who they need to give extra leniency to. I know collage professors at several schools and we really have nothing widespread like that.

College*

Not to be a jerk, I just saw you make the same spelling mistake a couple times

Re: One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

#104

Post by thewarrior » Thu, Jul 09, 2020, 11:51 PM UTC

thaumasiotes wrote: post #82

andreilys wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep I’m sure that their universities have no concept of letting in children of a major donor or political figure with influence.

Chinese universities do have this concept -- certain students are marked VIP, so that professors will know. But the concept of granting admission based on such status, as opposed to extending special treatment to an admitted student, is very much muted. There are ways of getting in to a university without passing the gaokao threshold that would ordinarily be required. But those generally involve receiving a point boo…

China as a civilization takes the notion of a merit based on examinations very seriously. They pioneered this system hundreds of years before anywhere else in the world.

Cheating may exist but in terms of valuing meritocracy China has it as deeply ingrained as the west.

Re: One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

#105

Post by thewarrior » Thu, Jul 09, 2020, 11:56 PM UTC

nouveaux wrote: post #81

thewarrior wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The western sense of morality didn’t stop the admissions scandals to all top western universities like Harvard Stanford and so on. Chinese universities as far as I know don’t have things like institutionalized legacy admissions. I’d like people to reconsider the view that western societies are somehow inherently purer or less corrupt. Often it takes different forms. This can be seen in the way sanctions are imposed f…

Just as many Chinese citizens are proud of their country and culture, there are lots of people in the US who are proud of their country and culture. Are there lots of hypocrites in the United States? Yes. Are there lots of naive people? I mean people still love Trump now while the rest of the world laughs at us. The people in both societies are flawed so let's put that aside. If we look at both systems (and not as in…

China is not a democracy. However the notion that Chinese culture is okay with despotism and tyranny is again a limited one.

The Mandate of Heaven is what gives a ruler in China the right to rule. This is not an inherent and automatic right like the divine right of kings.

If a ruler is unable to deliver prosperity and justice it’s completely justified for the ruler to be overthrown.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandate_of_Heaven

Western democracy is really being torn at the seams with Trump and Brexit. Both are policies which any sane outside observer will conclude are extremely harmful in the long term. However because of brainwashing a large portion of the citizenry are okay with it anyway.

Large sections are manipulated via social media by forces both external and internal dipping society into chaos even in the midst of existential threats like covid.

This is like saying yes we invaded a country and unleashed mass death but we also protest against it and make poignant films about how our soldiers felt really bad doing it so it’s all okay and it makes us better than those who don’t. The point is to not do it.

As we speak Iranians are dying in droves in the middle of a pandemic made worse by cruel sanctions imposed by the very people claiming to be enlightened. Imposing sanctions in the middle of a pandemic is nothing short of a crime against humanity.

Re: One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

#106

Post by megablast » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 12:02 AM UTC

zozin wrote: post #37

This is enraging. Identity theft in the United States can be a headache, sure, but in most cases the financial institutions are the ones taking the brunt of the damage, and even that is probably covered by some sort of insurance scheme. This woman had her entire life stripped away from her, not to mention making her doubt her own abilities by implying she “failed” the exam. How do these people live with themselves, e…

> This woman had her entire life stripped away from her, not to mention making her doubt her own abilities by implying she “failed” the exam.

Not just hers, her entire family. They worked together to help her do her best, including her brother dropping school. How much that conversation have gone when the results came back that she failed.

Unbelievable. Apparently some people have been punished, but what sort of punishment can make up for the awful position this family has been in for 15 years?

Re: One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

#107

Post by megablast » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 12:13 AM UTC

hatmatrix wrote: post #60

> The Ministry of Education has also announced that any students found to be involved in identity theft will not be allowed to enrol in university. Yeah that seems like the risk for screwing someone over is not so low - same outcome as if you hadn't committed this atrocity.

The ministry of education only has so much power.

Re: One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

#108

Post by muleroid » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 12:14 AM UTC

system16 wrote: post #52

leafboi wrote: post #21

What's nuts about this how tons of people from all levels of government/society participated in this conspiracy. It says a lot about the general attitude of Chinese people. (I'm chinese, btw)

To be more specific, I think it says a lot about the general attitude of people that have grown up under the CCP, and the 'take what you can get or starve' environment they've fostered. It's seen in other ways like lack of queuing, littering, and the general corruption throughout all levels of bureaucracy. The attitude is far less pervasive in Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore, Malaysia, or other countries with significan…

I'm not sure it's fair to place the blame solely on the CCP. A lot of the less desirable behavior stemmed from scarcity of resources, especially when the country was poor.

Can't comment too much on corruption as I don't have much experience there, but I have noticed things like lining up and littering get better as the standard of living has improved over the years.

Re: One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

#109

Post by megablast » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 12:15 AM UTC

So, how well did the imposter do at her job? Maybe these exams are not a great measure at all?

And how could you possibly repay the poor woman and her family for this?

Re: One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

#110

Post by DaiPlusPlus » Fri, Jul 10, 2020, 12:28 AM UTC

HeavenFox wrote: post #18

notwhereyouare wrote: post #3

I'm curious as to how these tests compare to the US SAT. You can take the SAT multiple times and submit your best attempt. In this story, the test seems one and done. You get 1 attempt and you either get in, or you don't. Also reminds me of the story from India like 1 or 2 years ago where a test had faulty answers and people thought they didn't get into university because of that

These exams differ from SAT in three major ways. First, they are offered once a year. Didn't do as well as you hope? Try again next year. Second, the material is significantly harder. Take math as an example. The exam questions are a lot closer to AMC/AIME than to SAT. In fact, suppose language is not a problem, many Chinese middle schooler would do pretty well on SAT's math section. Also you are not allowed any calc…

> Also you are not allowed any calculator.

Calculators shouldn’t be allowed on any mathematics examination. With limited exceptions, high-school mathematics and beyond is not really about arithmetic or numerical solutions, but about demonstrating understanding, which you don’t need a calculator for.

Questions on exams that use numerics also put people with dyscalculia at a disadvantage even if they have great ability at differential and integral calculus and other symbolic operations.

But mainly because it’s the best way to sneak-in crib notes past the exam invigilators. Especially in the US where everyone uses TI graphical calculators (yay for regulatory capture).