One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud • Hacker News Board

Re: One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

#41

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Jul 09, 2020, 7:34 PM UTC

leafboi wrote: post #23

magicsmoke wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something I've heard from Chinese people online about the difference between the US and China is that in America, you could be a plumber/auto mechanic/skilled trades and still have a middle-income lifestyle and a decent amount of societal respect. In China, working with your hands puts you on the lower rungs in society, hence everyone wants to get into college.

The kind of cultural attitude you describe reflects the supply and demand logistics of the economic conditions that were responsible for modern China as it is today. Modern China was built off the backs of Cheap Manual laborers

[deleted]

Re: One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

#42

Post by markus_zhang » Thu, Jul 09, 2020, 7:36 PM UTC

notwhereyouare wrote: post #3

I'm curious as to how these tests compare to the US SAT. You can take the SAT multiple times and submit your best attempt. In this story, the test seems one and done. You get 1 attempt and you either get in, or you don't. Also reminds me of the story from India like 1 or 2 years ago where a test had faulty answers and people thought they didn't get into university because of that

It's once a year and in general I'd say they are tougher than SAT.

Here is what I know back then as a student who took GaoKao in the 90s:

1. GaoKao also has provincial variants.

For example, back in the year when I took GaoKao, my city used a form called "3+1", which means 3 primary (Chinese, Math and English) plus 1 auxiliary. You can choose the auxiliary at the end of 11th grade, and the choices are Politics, History, Biology, Physics, Chemistry, etc. Other provinces used different forms but the majority were and still are on "3+2", so instead of one auxiliary they have to prepare for two.

From what I recalled, a few years after some provinces switched to 3+X (X depends on your choice). You still only get 1 exam for the X though.

2. Different universities have different entry scores for different provinces.

For example, I got a score of 420/600 I think? The university I went to actually charged different entry scores for different provinces. It makes sense in one way, as different provinces have different forms of GaoKao, but overall it's very unfair to students from less developed areas. I won't expand the reasoning from here but it has been a huge debate since decades ago.

Re: One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

#43

Post by mc32 » Thu, Jul 09, 2020, 7:37 PM UTC

zozin wrote: post #37

This is enraging. Identity theft in the United States can be a headache, sure, but in most cases the financial institutions are the ones taking the brunt of the damage, and even that is probably covered by some sort of insurance scheme. This woman had her entire life stripped away from her, not to mention making her doubt her own abilities by implying she “failed” the exam. How do these people live with themselves, e…

They should take whatever ill gotten earnings the cheaters have accumulate and give the majority to the aggrieved.

Those cheaters appear to have no conscience whatsoever about the whole affair.

Re: One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

#44

Post by johnchristopher » Thu, Jul 09, 2020, 7:40 PM UTC

zozin wrote: post #37

This is enraging. Identity theft in the United States can be a headache, sure, but in most cases the financial institutions are the ones taking the brunt of the damage, and even that is probably covered by some sort of insurance scheme. This woman had her entire life stripped away from her, not to mention making her doubt her own abilities by implying she “failed” the exam. How do these people live with themselves, e…

> Then again, maybe it’s my western sense of morality that tells me the perpetrator should feel guilt. Perhaps they don’t...

I wouldn't say it's your western sense of morality but your personal values. Many westerners sleep very well at night and yet are guilty of the same behavior.

Re: One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

#45

Post by thewarrior » Thu, Jul 09, 2020, 7:41 PM UTC

zozin wrote: post #37

This is enraging. Identity theft in the United States can be a headache, sure, but in most cases the financial institutions are the ones taking the brunt of the damage, and even that is probably covered by some sort of insurance scheme. This woman had her entire life stripped away from her, not to mention making her doubt her own abilities by implying she “failed” the exam. How do these people live with themselves, e…

The western sense of morality didn’t stop the admissions scandals to all top western universities like Harvard Stanford and so on.

Chinese universities as far as I know don’t have things like institutionalized legacy admissions.

I’d like people to reconsider the view that western societies are somehow inherently purer or less corrupt. Often it takes different forms.

This can be seen in the way sanctions are imposed for companies using slave labor in Xinjiang but there is not nearly as much reflection on the vast amounts of prison labor in the US mostly of people unjustly given heavy sentences. In fact the number of people in American prisons rivals the number of people in Soviet gulags. Yet there is no shortage of sanctimony or moral rectitude.

Anything wrong with western society is an unfortunate flaw in an otherwise just system but anything wrong outside the west is a civilizational failing that can only be fixed by adopting some theoretical enlightenment values which the west itself struggles to practice without hypocrisy.

We can criticize others and ourselves without essentializing or casting ourselves as inherently moral.

Re: One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

#46

Post by bllguo » Thu, Jul 09, 2020, 7:42 PM UTC

viklove wrote: post #36

Falloodude wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This test is absolutely brutal compared to the SAT. Imagine if US students were subjected to three days of testing, eight hours each day, that included all the SAT II subjects plus regular SAT subject matter. Oh, and throw in a whole section on Middle English, too.

Sounds like AP testing, which is required for most competitive institutions.

ap testing is a lot shorter, clearly not as comprehensive, and graded very leniently in comparison

Re: One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

#47

Post by distances » Thu, Jul 09, 2020, 7:49 PM UTC

anonAndOn wrote: post #29

distances wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your extracurriculars, who you are as a person, anything on your resume is irrelevant. All that matters is your score. Sounds absolutely brutal. That said, I was caught with the quoted paragraph. Why should your extracurricular hobbies or "you as a person" matter? As far as I see, all that should be considered in university admissions is indeed your test scores.

Because maybe you did something interesting in your young life that others aspire to achieve like: front a popular rock band[0], star in a popular television series[1] or a few movies[2][3], or even change a professional sport [4]? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rivers_Cuomo [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Savage [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emma_Watson [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reese_Witherspo…

I'm not sure why you linked to these people though? These achievements may be tales to recite to your grandchildren but none of this should come up in academic entrance decisions. These people have chosen a career in entertainment which is completely orthogonal to higher learning.

Re: One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

#48

Post by distances » Thu, Jul 09, 2020, 7:54 PM UTC

sethhochberg wrote: post #27

distances wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your extracurriculars, who you are as a person, anything on your resume is irrelevant. All that matters is your score. Sounds absolutely brutal. That said, I was caught with the quoted paragraph. Why should your extracurricular hobbies or "you as a person" matter? As far as I see, all that should be considered in university admissions is indeed your test scores.

You'll see the term "well rounded" thrown around a lot in discussions like this. The idea is that elite schools (or even just good ones) can take their pick of academic high-performers, so they seek out students who are more than just academic high performers. They become very interested in questions like "does this person have volunteer experience that might have exposed them to a worldview larger than themselves?",…

Thanks for the thoughtful reply, this makes sense to me: if you have books full of top qualifying candidates, it can be beneficial to have a secondary selection criteria.

I'm not familiar with an academic system like this so I can't really comment if it's giving good outcomes vs. purely academic selection. My country is small enough to have a single top tier university and multiple second level institutions, so I'm ingrained with the idea you should choose the best academic candidates from a limited applicant pool.

Re: One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

#49

Post by iateanapple » Thu, Jul 09, 2020, 7:55 PM UTC

zozin wrote: post #37

This is enraging. Identity theft in the United States can be a headache, sure, but in most cases the financial institutions are the ones taking the brunt of the damage, and even that is probably covered by some sort of insurance scheme. This woman had her entire life stripped away from her, not to mention making her doubt her own abilities by implying she “failed” the exam. How do these people live with themselves, e…

> It boggles the mind that people can live with themselves and can carry on living with such guilt. Then again, maybe it’s my western sense of morality that tells me the perpetrator should feel guilt. Perhaps they don’t...

The average westerner walks around in clothing made by incredibly desperate people living in poverty who work long hours in horrible conditions.

Re: One woman's stolen identity exposed a system of exam fraud

#50

Post by 8ytecoder » Thu, Jul 09, 2020, 8:00 PM UTC

thewarrior wrote: post #45

zozin wrote: post #37

This is enraging. Identity theft in the United States can be a headache, sure, but in most cases the financial institutions are the ones taking the brunt of the damage, and even that is probably covered by some sort of insurance scheme. This woman had her entire life stripped away from her, not to mention making her doubt her own abilities by implying she “failed” the exam. How do these people live with themselves, e…

The western sense of morality didn’t stop the admissions scandals to all top western universities like Harvard Stanford and so on. Chinese universities as far as I know don’t have things like institutionalized legacy admissions. I’d like people to reconsider the view that western societies are somehow inherently purer or less corrupt. Often it takes different forms. This can be seen in the way sanctions are imposed f…

The same universities that were affected by the scandal regularly give admissions for donors’ kin. It’s just that the money went to a third party instead of the college in the scandalous cases. Free market - not arguing the morality of it - allows for the person with the resources to get an edge on various things - from life saving medical treatment to life changing opportunities.