U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation • Hacker News Board

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#451

Post by _jal » Thu, Jul 09, 2020, 7:59 PM UTC

curiousgal wrote: post #318

antics wrote: post #130

Just a couple notes here from a person of tribal descent (I am Wasq'u, a tribe in the PNW), for those trying to make sense of it. This ruling, as I understand it, resolves a narrow technicality—but that technicality has potentially enormous implications. The Court has only decided that the federal [EDIT: state! sorry!] government has no prosecutorial jurisdiction against citizens of the so-called "Five Civilized Trib…

> This ruling, as I understand it, resolves a narrow technicality That is literally all of the SCOTUS rulings. It's petty listening to bright minds discuss minute details. The fact that technicalities have far reaching effects is a sign that the system is broken.

> The fact that technicalities have far reaching effects is a sign that the system is broken.

I find that an utterly hilarious thing to say in a forum with a large number of highly technical people, and another large number of people who understand complex, nontechnical systems.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#452

Post by jjeaff » Thu, Jul 09, 2020, 7:59 PM UTC

btilly wrote: post #411

ddingus wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good. The natives deserve a fair shake and the land is roomy enough for people to get along and work together. Forcing that is a damn good thing. The USA has a lot to account for, and it is very sick. Rough roads ahead. Maybe they lead to better places. I do not feel good about the last 4 or so decades of travel. As a people, maybe world, we may well be better for going down this road.

For the record I have a brother living on a native reservation. I am well aware of exactly how horrible our past and continuing treatment of the natives have been. And strongly support fixing our ongoing treatment of them. However I also strongly believe that our future prosperity is based more on current actions than past circumstances. And therefore believe that attempts to redress long past ills are actively harmf…

Like many supreme court decisions, the individual case at hand is not really the point. It sets a precedent for other law. This specific offender has spent decades in prison already and can now be tried in federal court if need be.

I'm sure no one here is supporting this offender, but whether someone is guilty or not, they are entitled to a just trial that properly follows the legal system. The supreme court has ruled that he was not afforded that.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#453

Post by rurp » Thu, Jul 09, 2020, 7:59 PM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #58

systemvoltage wrote: post #46

Why not everyone assimilate? It is no longer "United States" when we split states off for special treatment for minorities. These minorities will further regress and never get out of the poor living conditions. Reservations are one of the most impoverished regions in the US. We should then probably go back to Genghis Khan times and challenge the whole Eurasia, Persian inlands and a bunch of other areas around the wor…

> Why not everyone assimilate? Recognized Native American tribes are sovereign nations . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribal_sovereignty_in_the_Unit... You might as well ask why European settlers aren't forced to assimilate into them.

They aren't really sovereign nations though, right? Like if a tribe decided to build a giant meth industrial complex or a nuclear weapon facility on their land, the US federal govt is going to shut that down ASAP.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#454

Post by ddingus » Thu, Jul 09, 2020, 7:59 PM UTC

btilly wrote: post #411

ddingus wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good. The natives deserve a fair shake and the land is roomy enough for people to get along and work together. Forcing that is a damn good thing. The USA has a lot to account for, and it is very sick. Rough roads ahead. Maybe they lead to better places. I do not feel good about the last 4 or so decades of travel. As a people, maybe world, we may well be better for going down this road.

For the record I have a brother living on a native reservation. I am well aware of exactly how horrible our past and continuing treatment of the natives have been. And strongly support fixing our ongoing treatment of them. However I also strongly believe that our future prosperity is based more on current actions than past circumstances. And therefore believe that attempts to redress long past ills are actively harmf…

Let's just say we disagree.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#455

Post by mac01021 » Thu, Jul 09, 2020, 7:59 PM UTC

What are the implications of this for non-tribe-members who live and have business on the land in question?

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#456

Post by sophacles » Thu, Jul 09, 2020, 7:59 PM UTC

seemslegit wrote: post #368

Uh, surely it doesn't mean the the people residing in the area in question can go on committing what would be a crime under Oklahoma law... right ?

I think it means that the borders of Oklahoma get more complex when you consider the treaties that the US has entered into.

It's worth noting that according to the constitution, treaties have equal weight to the constitution. Therefore this ruling seems to me a way of saying "hey, maybe we should draw the maps according to the highest law in the land".

It has a bonus effect of signalling that the native people are actually people for both punishment AND benefit. Traditionally the US is bad at acknowledging the benefit side for folks with pigment (and doubling down on the punishment side, but that's a different discussion).

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#457

Post by koheripbal » Thu, Jul 09, 2020, 8:01 PM UTC

zetazzed wrote: post #301

From the actual opinion: "Oklahoma replies that its situation is different because the affected population here is large and many of its residents will be surprised to find out they have been living in Indian country this whole time. But we imagine some members of the 1832 Creek Tribe would be just as surprised to find them there." Damn, nice shade, Gorsuch! https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/19pdf/18-9526_9okb.pd…

The entire city of Tulsa is there - literally millions of non-native Americans live in this area.

Congress will have no choice but to make a law breaking the promise and repatriating the land out of Native American hands.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#458

Post by koheripbal » Thu, Jul 09, 2020, 8:02 PM UTC

protomyth wrote: post #428

9wzYQbTYsAIc wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And, either way, what are the implications to non-tribe citizens and non-tribe governments?

For non-natives not really. For natives, it depends on the agreements. This isn't really a traditional reservation situation, since the tribes really are not going to have the traditional governance over the land. For example, the cops are not going to get replaced by BIA or Tribal police.

Why not? If they're on tribal land, what's to stop the tribe from governing?

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#459

Post by koheripbal » Thu, Jul 09, 2020, 8:03 PM UTC

threatofrain wrote: post #2

> The ruling means that for the first time much of eastern Oklahoma is legally considered reservation land. More than 1.8 million people live in the land at issue, including roughly 400,000 in Tulsa, Oklahoma’s second-largest city. McGirt v Oklahoma (9 July 2020) pdf: https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/19pdf/18-9526_9okb.pdf

This seems like an invitation for Congress to pass a law taking the land back officially.

...though probably not until after the election.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#460

Post by asdff » Thu, Jul 09, 2020, 8:03 PM UTC

thekingofh wrote: post #25

I had the pleasure of driving through and visiting Oklahoma a decade or so ago. Some people don't like the rural states, but it felt so serene out there. We stopped at a shaved ice place off of some random exit and just sat there on the hood staring out at the plains. There's not much out there but it felt so peaceful. It felt like home.

I had a different feeling. It wasn't empty in the sense that the desert is, which is very pleasant and beautiful, but scarred with industrialized agriculture, and silos stretching out into the infinite surrounding. The fact that there was absolutely nothing at all as far as the eye can see, no mountain or woods, just field upon industrial field with no farm house or town in sight, felt extremely isolating and uncomfortable. A feeling of having no bearings, no difference in any direction; no idea where to run.

The small towns felt disturbing. Tulsa felt disturbing. The lack of minorities out in public was painfully glaring. It was all so very patriotic and dystopian. The unsettling overbearing flatness on the featureless terrain dominated my perspective of the area. Not for me, and I couldn't leave soon enough.