U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation • Hacker News Board

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#361

Post by snoshy » Thu, Jul 09, 2020, 6:59 PM UTC

curiousgal wrote: post #318

antics wrote: post #130

Just a couple notes here from a person of tribal descent (I am Wasq'u, a tribe in the PNW), for those trying to make sense of it. This ruling, as I understand it, resolves a narrow technicality—but that technicality has potentially enormous implications. The Court has only decided that the federal [EDIT: state! sorry!] government has no prosecutorial jurisdiction against citizens of the so-called "Five Civilized Trib…

> This ruling, as I understand it, resolves a narrow technicality That is literally all of the SCOTUS rulings. It's petty listening to bright minds discuss minute details. The fact that technicalities have far reaching effects is a sign that the system is broken.

I don't see that this some sign of systemic dysfunction. Given the significant amount of time and effort that is expended before a legal dispute is considered by SCOTUS, it stands to reason that the arguments would be sufficiently nuanced at that stage.

If the highest court of the land doesn't sweat the details, why would lower courts or any other aspect of our legal system be reasonably expected to do so? In any reasonably complex system (legal or otherwise), it should make sense that the technicalities do matter, and that the supreme decision making body in that system should consider those carefully due to the outsized influence it holds.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#362

Post by djohnston » Thu, Jul 09, 2020, 7:00 PM UTC

nabilhat wrote: post #346

toyg wrote: post #134

It's so weird how sentences so significant are often "protecting" the rights of terrible, terrible people: > McGirt, 71, has served more than two decades in prison after being convicted [...] of rape, lewd molestation and forcible sodomy of a 4-year-old girl. McGirt [...] did not contest his guilt in the case I'd be interested in learning who was involved in McGirt's proceedings and why. Did they mean to actually get…

Everyone deserves a vigorous legal defense, even the most reprehensible. If the accused or convicted are exempt from the rule of law, so are those who are accused or convicted by mistake, corruption, or abuse of power. Competent and committed legal defense for everyone defends the rule of law as it's applied to all of us.

Yep, but it also doesn't change that this particular person might be let free. I think it's OK to feel a little ambivalent about this ruling.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#363

Post by fmajid » Thu, Jul 09, 2020, 7:00 PM UTC

Sometimes Supreme Court justices will surprise you. Justice Gorsuch is from the American West, and has proven to be a strong and consistent advocate for Native American rights in the Supreme Court, just as Justice Scalia was for the Fourth Amendment.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#364

Post by x0x0 » Thu, Jul 09, 2020, 7:00 PM UTC

ISL wrote: post #238

war1025 wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> because of the massive failure that congress is This is a conclusion I'm coming to more and more. It's easy to blame Presidential overreach or Supreme Court overreach, but the Congress seems to be steadily abdicating responsibility while still managing to get very little of substance accomplished. They are supposed to be the most powerful branch of government, but instead they have deadlocked themselves into useles…

While in effect it is abdicating, in reality, Congress is spinlocked by indecision. There are deep divides between the branches of the electorate that have brought the representatives to office, as the United States faces a number of divisive issues. Those divides, and a preference for combat over compromise, leave us deadlocked. The center is there for the first party that chooses to leave its entrenchement. When Co…

It's not an artifact of division necessarily -- it's that the US government, structurally, has an extraordinarily high number of veto points.

eg in federal legislation: the House (majority); the Senate, representing increasingly tiny numbers of Americans (supermajority, often: cloture); the president, and the supreme court.

Ezra Klein wrote a book about it. https://simonandschusterpublishing.com/why-were-polarized/

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#365

Post by caymanjim » Thu, Jul 09, 2020, 7:01 PM UTC

votepaunchy wrote: post #293

busterarm wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except this is demonstrably untrue. The 115th (2017-2018)[1] Congress had both a Republican House and Senate and it got extremely little done. Our Congress is completely ineffective. [1]:Fixed.

Without eliminating the filibuster the Senate can only pass bills with a simple majority by the extremely limited reconciliation process.

Filibuster is almost never used. It's occasionally threatened, frequently used as an excuse for not even trying, but rarely used. If it were used more often, it would elevate the debate around the bills under consideration. Congress doesn't even try.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#366

Post by pnw_hazor » Thu, Jul 09, 2020, 7:03 PM UTC

Vysero wrote: post #306

antics wrote: post #130

Just a couple notes here from a person of tribal descent (I am Wasq'u, a tribe in the PNW), for those trying to make sense of it. This ruling, as I understand it, resolves a narrow technicality—but that technicality has potentially enormous implications. The Court has only decided that the federal [EDIT: state! sorry!] government has no prosecutorial jurisdiction against citizens of the so-called "Five Civilized Trib…

Yeah I was wondering what exactly was meant by "reservation".. in my experience you can't, as an outsider (non-native), just go, and live on the reservation. So unless it's unlike any reservations in my state then there must have been something I was missing.

Back in the day, enrolled members of some tribes could sell land to non-members. I think most tribes prevent that now. Land sold to non-members became Fee property that can be owned by non-members or sold to non-members.

Depending on the reservation, you will find plenty of non-members that own property within the reservation.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#367

Post by abqio » Thu, Jul 09, 2020, 7:03 PM UTC

NonEUCitizen wrote: post #233

The numbers should really be 100% instead of 25% and 10%. Much has been stolen from them.

No thank you. As someone who lives in one of those states this is a worrying precedent.

Maybe if their laws didn't apply to me as a non citizen I would be ok with this. As it is, I can be arrested for stopping at the wrong gas station with a firearm in my car.

I have no choice but to pass through reservations on a regular basis. And I have no input in the government that makes their laws. Nor any hope of ever being heard. Yet those laws apply to me just the same.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#368

Post by seemslegit » Thu, Jul 09, 2020, 7:03 PM UTC

Uh, surely it doesn't mean the the people residing in the area in question can go on committing what would be a crime under Oklahoma law... right ?

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#369

Post by elbigbad » Thu, Jul 09, 2020, 7:03 PM UTC

curiousgal wrote: post #318

antics wrote: post #130

Just a couple notes here from a person of tribal descent (I am Wasq'u, a tribe in the PNW), for those trying to make sense of it. This ruling, as I understand it, resolves a narrow technicality—but that technicality has potentially enormous implications. The Court has only decided that the federal [EDIT: state! sorry!] government has no prosecutorial jurisdiction against citizens of the so-called "Five Civilized Trib…

> This ruling, as I understand it, resolves a narrow technicality That is literally all of the SCOTUS rulings. It's petty listening to bright minds discuss minute details. The fact that technicalities have far reaching effects is a sign that the system is broken.

Putting aside the question of what makes a "tecnicality," the fact that technicalities are able to be put forth and argued until a decisionmaker makes a ruling, rather than having a party decide unilaterally how to resolve the technicality, presumably at the peril of their opponent, means the system is working well.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#370

Post by aeternum » Thu, Jul 09, 2020, 7:04 PM UTC

busterarm wrote: post #265

ISL wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While in effect it is abdicating, in reality, Congress is spinlocked by indecision. There are deep divides between the branches of the electorate that have brought the representatives to office, as the United States faces a number of divisive issues. Those divides, and a preference for combat over compromise, leave us deadlocked. The center is there for the first party that chooses to leave its entrenchement. When Co…

Except this is demonstrably untrue. The 115th (2017-2018)[1] Congress had both a Republican House and Senate and it got extremely little done. Our Congress is completely ineffective. [1]:Fixed.

It seems like a good design to me. We don't want a congress that always votes along party lines, and if there is not a strong consensus, then keeping the status-quo is often not the worst thing.

Especially since law-makers have a strong incentive to further their own careers by introducing changes. This system forces law-makers to work harder to get change passed, it often must be a change that benefits more than just a simple majority.