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New German law would force ISPs to allow secret service to install trojans

privateinternetaccess.com

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Re: New German law would force ISPs to allow secret service to install trojans

#41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Better "will have to" .. "if the law is passed".

I would say it more precisely translates to "are supposed to". Although it is clear from the actual content of the article that it would not really be a choice.

No, "are supposed to" is less strict than "must". If the law passes, then they must allow the intelligence services to do this. Or "will have to" if they want to continue to be in the business.

Re: New German law would force ISPs to allow secret service to install trojans

#42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's primarily about ISPs, not data centers. Your servers are typically secured with SSL.

Backbones appear to be included.

Possibly, but it's much harder to intercept and mitm specific traffic at that level. On the ISP-side, that's different: they can with high certainty say that some traffic is coming from/to a specific suspect, much like a phone surveillance. This might also apply to individual service, e.g. an email provider.

Re: New German law would force ISPs to allow secret service to install trojans

#43
post #6

Mods: This is an article about a proposed law, so "will" isn't really an accurate reflection (yet, or hopefully at all) and the title should be changed. My proposal: "New German law would force ISPs to redirect traffic to intelligence services for trojan install" (if that is not to long).

There are a couple problems: one is that proposed bills rarely go anywhere, so it's generally best to wait for a state change [1]. Edit: I think we can override this issue, given that surveillance laws are of particular interest to HN and the comment at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23783164.

The other is that HN is an English-language site. We have deep respect for the German language, but articles on HN need to be in English [2]. I've changed it to https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/blog/new-german-law-wo... for now. If there's a better link, we can change it again.

(Submitted URL was https://netzpolitik.org/2020/staatstrojaner-provider-sollen-...)

[1] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

[2] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

Re: New German law would force ISPs to allow secret service to install trojans

#44
post #33
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually it translated to "have to", not "should" (which would more properly be "sollten").

I'm learning German at a fairly low level so I ask this from the perspective of wanting to learn, not as a challenge. Wouldn't "have to" be "müssen"? In what cases would you use "sollen" to have a similar meaning? And "sollten" is either Präteritum or Konjunctive II, which as I understand it would both mean "should have", though in different senses. Why is that a more proper translation of "should"?

Most of the times, "sollen" and "müssen" are interchangeable.

However, there are fine nuances between the words.

In that case, "müssen" is more direct and used as a command which has consequences when not followed while "sollen" is more of a prompt or demand that hasn't to be followed.

Re: New German law would force ISPs to allow secret service to install trojans

#45
post #22

In english with more info: https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/blog/new-german-law-wo...

Ok, changed to that from https://netzpolitik.org/2020/staatstrojaner-provider-sollen-.... See also https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23783406. Thanks!

Re: New German law would force ISPs to allow secret service to install trojans

#46
post #34
post #6

Mods: This is an article about a proposed law, so "will" isn't really an accurate reflection (yet, or hopefully at all) and the title should be changed. My proposal: "New German law would force ISPs to redirect traffic to intelligence services for trojan install" (if that is not to long).

Yes, you are right, but the current title is just 2 chars under the limit and I couldn't think of a shorter one. Sorry for the somewhat misleading "will". My somewhat lame excuse: The law will most probably pass, current govt is a coalition of the two largest parties with overwhelming majority and absolutely no clue about anything digital. Edit: would "shall" work instead of "will"?

"German proposal would"

Re: New German law would force ISPs to allow secret service to install trojans

#47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Backbones appear to be included.

Possibly, but it's much harder to intercept and mitm specific traffic at that level. On the ISP-side, that's different: they can with high certainty say that some traffic is coming from/to a specific suspect, much like a phone surveillance. This might also apply to individual service, e.g. an email provider.

If it's in a data center security services have physical access.

Re: New German law would force ISPs to allow secret service to install trojans

#48
What does "trojans at ISPs" even mean? TLS works end-to-end and ISPs can do absolutely nothing to see the plaintext. It's unless the CAs at users-side are manually replaced with fake ones nothing can be done. I've never used Windows since I was a kid but I am sure this is pretty much impossible on Linux for example since adding CAs require root privilege.

Re: New German law would force ISPs to allow secret service to install trojans

#50
post #29
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This has nothing to do with NetzDG. If he would have spewed something of that caliber openly on the street he would've had to expect the same thing (depending on where in Germany of course). That there is no "free speech" in Germany in respect to hatespeech has been the case pre-internet too. I'm not a big fan of NetzDG, but I also have to say that I expected much worse censorship-wise when it passed and I haven't he…

You can do many things: You can pass those laws, put people in jail, make up the term "hate speech" and condemn everyone who does that. But you can not say that we have internet (or any other) freedom in Germany. There is some nice english proverb about a cake and eating it too

You can try to argue that certain things aren't "hate speech" but I don't understand how you can claim it to be a made up term. Hate is a real thing and if you channel that into certain language you get hate speech, plain and simple.

Germany has an interesting history with regards to what various constituents view as protected speech. As someone who hasn't lived in Germany I freely admit that I have a limited view of such things, but as the other poster mentioned these issues precede the internet.

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