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U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

reuters.com

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Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#251

Post by ColanR »

jordanpg wrote: post #241
rndmize wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm tempted to say that the uselessness of Congress is in indication of something else - we've pushed too much to the federal level. The decades-long tooth-and-nail fighting over healthcare makes me think that an effective system just can't be done federally; there's too much disagreement between states. Why not scrap most of the social programs, cut federal taxes, and let states implement their own?

Or alternatively, that the federal government, as it currently operates, is simply no longer up to the task of modern governance. Too slow, too reliant on voluntary compliance, and most importantly, too difficult to make decisions with long term time horizons.

> Too slow, too reliant on voluntary compliance, and most importantly, too difficult to make decisions with long term time horizons.

Not sure you want an efficient, consolidated government if the wrong party is leading it.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#252

Post by AnimalMuppet »

iheartblocks wrote: post #247
hvs wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, that precisely the opinion that the Romans came to as well.

Can you expand on this?

I believe the claim is that the Roman emperors came about because the Roman senate became so mired in infighting that it was incapable of governing. I'm not a historian, but from what I understand, there is at least an element of truth in the claim.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#253

Post by dudul »

Mangalor wrote: post #184
umvi wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Native Americans had wars and conquered each other for millennia before white man came. It wasn't some unified utopia in the Americas like Pocahontas leads you to believe. It was a huge cycle of tribalism, conquering each other, and bloodshed. So... because they were conquering each other first, a technologically superior entity isn't allowed to conquer them?

I mean if we're getting into it, "white man" basically genocided their whole population with disease. The Native Americans never did anything nearly so heinous.

I'm not sure I understand your comment. If the genocide happened due to diseases imported from the Old World, how is it "heinous"? It happened at a time where people had no clue what diseases and immune systems were.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#254

Post by kube-system »

bilbo0s wrote: post #178
Angostura wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If congress doesn't change something, then that means they have determined no change is necessary. ... and therefore the promise is still in force and should be upheld.

True. In this case, either way, half of Oklahoma belongs to the tribe. Congress has not taken it away in the legally prescribed manner, therefore SCOTUS has no choice but to say that until congress does, the promise has to be upheld. Congress has to do its job. Or not. Whichever it chooses. But it can't rely on the courts to do its job. The courts are right to let everything sit exactly where it is, and drop the enti…

> In this case, either way, half of Oklahoma belongs to the tribe.

If I am not mistaken, this ruling only pertains to the Major Crimes Act[0]. It doesn't mean half of Oklahoma "belongs to the tribe", it just means half of Oklahoma doesn't have criminal jurisdiction for a short list of crimes when they are committed by tribal citizens.

0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_Crimes_Act

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#255

Post by AnimalMuppet »

calvinmorrison wrote: post #216
rndmize wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm tempted to say that the uselessness of Congress is in indication of something else - we've pushed too much to the federal level. The decades-long tooth-and-nail fighting over healthcare makes me think that an effective system just can't be done federally; there's too much disagreement between states. Why not scrap most of the social programs, cut federal taxes, and let states implement their own?

Balkanization is the fastest way to find out what works and doesn't and allow for local control and decision making, it also makes nice for frequent wars and nutty leaders.

But if Arizona implements a different healthcare system than New York, even if each hates the other system, they don't get to have a war, because neither of them has a military. (OK, they each have their own National Guard elements...)

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#256

Post by WillPostForFood »

jordanpg wrote: post #241
rndmize wrote: post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm tempted to say that the uselessness of Congress is in indication of something else - we've pushed too much to the federal level. The decades-long tooth-and-nail fighting over healthcare makes me think that an effective system just can't be done federally; there's too much disagreement between states. Why not scrap most of the social programs, cut federal taxes, and let states implement their own?

Or alternatively, that the federal government, as it currently operates, is simply no longer up to the task of modern governance. Too slow, too reliant on voluntary compliance, and most importantly, too difficult to make decisions with long term time horizons.

Too large

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#257

Post by A4ET8a8uTh0 »

bhupy wrote: post #232
intopieces wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If congress doesn't change something, then that means they have determined no change is necessary. This not accurate. Congress failing to act due to deadlock does not indicate that either party agrees that no change ought to be made, only that congress couldn’t come to an agreement about how it should be made. To say otherwise is akin to saying that, because you and your husband can’t agree on where to eat for dinn…

> This not accurate. Congress failing to act due to deadlock does not indicate that either party agrees that no change ought to be made, only that congress couldn’t come to an agreement about how it should be made. That is actually literally what it means. The way the Union is set up, there is a certain amount of consensus necessary to pass legislation over 50 States across 300+ million people. If there is a deadlock…

This is by far one of the pieces a lot of people seem to miss. The system was set up for gridlock in hopes that it will temper some of the more dangerous tendencies of powerful and ambitious men.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#258

Post by lucasgonze »

btilly wrote: post #194

Unlawful acts, performed long enough and with sufficient vigor, are never enough to amend the law. To hold otherwise would be to elevate the most brazen and longstanding injustices over the law, both rewarding wrong and failing those in the right. I disagree with this reasoning. As a counterexample I point you to squatters rights. If I live on your land long and openly enough, my unlawful act will confer ownership of…

You're thinking of laches: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laches_(equity)

"Laches refers to a lack of diligence and activity in making a legal claim, or moving forward with legal enforcement of a right, particularly in regard to equity"

It doesn't apply because nobody is claiming tribal groups failed to protect their interests. They haven't just been blowing off and watching TV all this time.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#259

Post by jcranmer »

Robotbeat wrote: post #121
ceejayoz wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why not everyone assimilate? Recognized Native American tribes are sovereign nations . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribal_sovereignty_in_the_Unit... You might as well ask why European settlers aren't forced to assimilate into them.

I wonder about that. Right now, the fact that the Nations don’t have direct representation in Congress (yes, I understand citizens can vote in the state the reservation resides in) makes them appear more like subjects of an Empire than as coequals in a Republic. I think a lot about how to improve this. I think a lot about how to truly reckon with genocide and yet coexist. If anyone has resources about how to improve…

One solution I thought of in an alternative history universe where the US doesn't genocide Native Americans is a tricameral legislature, where the third house is effectively ethnically-based instead of geographically based.

Although given the actual histories of countries that do have strict ethnic quotas for allotting political power, I doubt it would work quite so well in practice.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#260

Post by eropple »

iheartblocks wrote: post #247
hvs wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, that precisely the opinion that the Romans came to as well.

Can you expand on this?

There is a school of thought (with some validity, though I think it lacks nuance) that points out that the early Roman Empire, the Principate of Augustus until the Dominate of Diocletian, tried to empower the Senate. The Senate had its set of provinces, the emperor his. The cursus honorum was still used to track and groom administrators and leaders and the senate's support (balanced against the army and the people of the city of Rome generally) still legitimized the emperor. But over time, goes this line of thinking, senatorial attention and interest fell away somewhat from administrative and managerial responsibilities and turned more into a social/politicking club, and the emperor "naturally" picked up the slack.

There is an element of bias to this, and it often reveals a political preference of the author, but it's not without some merit.

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