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Linux Mint drops Ubuntu Snap packages

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Re: Linux Mint drops Ubuntu Snap packages

#471

Post by abjKT26nO8 »

ddevault wrote: post #463
jonquark wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can see why Snap is like it is from Canonial's perspective - but from the User perspective it seems like FlatPaks[1] are much better and address the issues that this article raises [1] https://flathub.org/home (Disclaimer: I'm talking in a personal capacity but the company I work for in my day job now owns Red Hat - I don't work on Linux Operating Systems).

Every attempt at "solving" this "problem", including Snap, Flatpak, and AppImage, are an absolutely awful regression in the state of Linux. I absolutely hate this trend. These tools solve problems for only two kinds of software: proprietary software, and software with suck reckless, runaway complexity that it can only run in one specific environment. I have no interest in either kind and I will give no quarter to "so…

I mostly agree with you and I'm not going to get even near Snaps and Flatpaks.

However, ignoring the aspect of software distribution, wouldn't you agree that the approach taken by the Linux desktop today is deficient security-wise? For example, I would like to be able to give mbsync (or Thunderbird or whatever) my IMAP password without giving it to any other program. So I don't want to store it in mbsync's config file in plain text. Neither will I use gnome-keyring (or any other keyring) because it doesn't have any kind of "program authorisation". Any program can just spawn a new "secret-tool" process and get my credentials from gnome-keyring.

I've been thinking for a while about implementing a keyring which runs as a daemon with SUID of a dedicated user and checks which program sends requests to it, using /proc/pid/exe, but I'm not sure if it's a secure source of truth: how e.g. namespaces affect what's visible in /proc/pid/exe. I know you've been developing himitsu[1]. Have you thought about this problem in that context?

[1]: https://git.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/himitsu

Re: Linux Mint drops Ubuntu Snap packages

#472

Post by Phrenzy »

vpzom wrote: post #388
ric2b wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why manually? "I know you're about to do this thing real quick that needs to get done, but a new version is available! Would you like to twiddle your thumbs for 5 minutes while watching a progress bar?". That's a very Windows-centric point of view. Programs on Linux can be updated without closing them. You get the new version when you restart them.

Firefox has entered the chat

Chocolaty GUI for Redmond.

sudo apt update && sudo apt full-upgrade -y && sudo apt autoremove -y && echo 'All done!, rebooting' && sudo reboot now

For everything else.

Re: Linux Mint drops Ubuntu Snap packages

#473

Post by tkuraku »

For me, flatpaks are a better user experience in just about every way. The one feature they are missing is that there is no equivalent to the snap --classic confinement. That means that for applications like vscode the flatpak experience is very poor. You cannot easily access command line tools from the editor. For instance using the anaconda python distribution from the vscode flatpak is a pain.

Re: Linux Mint drops Ubuntu Snap packages

#474

Post by derefr »

psanford wrote: post #7

From the linked announcement: https://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=3906 > Applications in this store cannot be patched, or pinned. You can’t audit them, hold them, modify them or even point snap to a different store. You’ve as much empowerment with this as if you were using proprietary software, i.e. none. This is in effect similar to a commercial proprietary solution, but with two major differences: It runs as root, and it…

> People run linux because they want visibility and control into what is happening on their systems.

I mean, not really? Or rather, that's not the only reason, or the main reason for many users.

Many people just want to use a FOSS OS, for the reason that any buggy component can be forked, fixed, and PRed, which—if you're an IT organization yourself—often means far less turnaround time than waiting for the appropriate vendor to fix the problem for you.

Honestly, I'd be fine using Windows Server or some other "cathedral" OS, if I could fork/fix/PR its components. I want a stable operational substrate for my app that's quick to fix in an emergency; I don't care whether it's made out of tiny shell-scripts or huge C libraries, as long as it gives me that property.

In that perspective, snap seems fine (you can still fork/fix/PR a snap) just like Docker images are fine, or systemd is fine.

Maybe, in the end, I'm more of a BSD person than a Linux person. I mostly favor Linux installs for the hardware compatibility and performance, not because it really fits my philosophy.

Re: Linux Mint drops Ubuntu Snap packages

#475

Post by ddevault »

abjKT26nO8 wrote: post #471
ddevault wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every attempt at "solving" this "problem", including Snap, Flatpak, and AppImage, are an absolutely awful regression in the state of Linux. I absolutely hate this trend. These tools solve problems for only two kinds of software: proprietary software, and software with suck reckless, runaway complexity that it can only run in one specific environment. I have no interest in either kind and I will give no quarter to "so…

I mostly agree with you and I'm not going to get even near Snaps and Flatpaks. However, ignoring the aspect of software distribution, wouldn't you agree that the approach taken by the Linux desktop today is deficient security-wise? For example, I would like to be able to give mbsync (or Thunderbird or whatever) my IMAP password without giving it to any other program. So I don't want to store it in mbsync's config fil…

I agree with you, but the solution would have been Plan 9 namespaces, not Linux containers. What we're working towards today is awful.

Re: Linux Mint drops Ubuntu Snap packages

#476

Post by streb-lo »

dcow wrote: post #379
foxylad wrote: post #358

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a big user issue on top of the philosophical and maintenance issues - snaps are SLOOOOOOW. I've only experienced them with two applications, and both took forever to startup compared to the apt-get installed versions I quickly replaced them with. OK, "forever" is hyperbole - it was probably about 5 seconds. But it was enough of an annoyance for me to figure out how to install a deb packaged version. And ever…

Sending some encouragement your way: try Debian. I bet money you won't even notice it's not Ubuntu. Or you will, because your software will launch when you ask it to. I'm super happy with Debian lately. I know it used to be the old neck beard slow and steady distro, but honestly these days packages get updates rather timely and it doesn't feel like the Debian of 10 years ago. And you can always run Debian testing wit…

Debian is nice if you don't mind the glacial pace of updates -i.e. you're running a server. After using Arch I don't think I can give up rolling releases.

Re: Linux Mint drops Ubuntu Snap packages

#477

Post by mixmastamyk »

someperson wrote: post #422
mixmastamyk wrote: post #362

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google is even less trustworthy than Canonical. I only use chromium for a few tests in incognito mode. Firefox FTW.

You say Google is less trustworthy than Canonical, but you're using Chromium from a PPA. That's a personal packaging archive with far less auditing/eyeballs than either Canonical or Google.

> and while not perfect, it doesn't do any of the irritating things listed above.

I rarely use it and only in incognito mode. Yes, it's a tradeoff but with numerous benefits.

Re: Linux Mint drops Ubuntu Snap packages

#478

Post by Elzair »

znpy wrote: post #468
emerongi wrote: post #220

Snaps are super laggy. GNOME calculator on Ubuntu runs in a snap and it is baffling that whoever made the decision to package it in a snap by default was OK with the fact that it takes 2 seconds to launch a basic calculator on a 2017 laptop (edit: re-tested, it took 5 seconds). To top it off, a couple months ago my calculator disappeared. For some reason I have been having problems with snap applications disappearing…

can confirm, have exact same problem with the exact same software (gnome-calculator). I now switched to xcalc. gnome-calculator is better, honestly, but it's not worth feeling in the 90ies.

Well, there is always bc and dc.

Re: Linux Mint drops Ubuntu Snap packages

#480

Post by Narishma »

randomdude402 wrote: post #357
emerongi wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is weird to me is that apparently there has not been someone in a position of power in this project that would go "Wait guys, this is not good. Any other ideas? How can we improve?" No, just roll on with it. There was a period of time, around 2010-2015 when I really felt that computers were fast. SSDs were getting more affordable and that was a huge improvement, every action was immediately responsive. In 2020,…

Somebody somewhere is probably running a calculator as an electron app that takes 10 seconds to open.

You don't even need Electron. The "modern" Windows 10 calculator takes a dozen seconds to start on my laptop.
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