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U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

reuters.com

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Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#161

Post by landryraccoon »

nostromo wrote: post #142
calvinmorrison wrote: post #128

"We reject that thinking. If Congress wishes to withdraw its promises, it must say so." As with so many controversial court rulings like the ACA mandate case, our courts keep getting put into the decision because of the massive failure that congress is. Congress should either fulfill the promise or not, or whatever. instead the judicial bodies end up making legal judgements with big ramifcations that largely should b…

If congress doesn't change something, then that means they have determined no change is necessary. That isn't an invitation for the executive branch (or judiciary) to overreach. In theory congress could go years without passing a single law, and that would be fine. It would signal that the current laws are sufficient. (As an aside, congress has ceded much of it's lawmaking authority to federal agencies anyway -- so e…

> no change is necessary.

This could mean a lot of things. Do you mean no change to the law is necessary? SCOTUS is upholding that principle. It is saying that the law as written stands.

The Judiciary is not overreaching here. They are doing exactly what their job says - they're interpreting existing laws, not writing new laws.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#162

Post by tony_cannistra »

nostromo wrote: post #142
calvinmorrison wrote: post #128

"We reject that thinking. If Congress wishes to withdraw its promises, it must say so." As with so many controversial court rulings like the ACA mandate case, our courts keep getting put into the decision because of the massive failure that congress is. Congress should either fulfill the promise or not, or whatever. instead the judicial bodies end up making legal judgements with big ramifcations that largely should b…

If congress doesn't change something, then that means they have determined no change is necessary. That isn't an invitation for the executive branch (or judiciary) to overreach. In theory congress could go years without passing a single law, and that would be fine. It would signal that the current laws are sufficient. (As an aside, congress has ceded much of it's lawmaking authority to federal agencies anyway -- so e…

I understand your point, but I fear you may misunderstand, because I believe the Decision is in line with your views.

The justices' point is that congress, in its inaction, has not enabled the reduction in Creek reservations that has been perpetrated through large-scale disenfranchisement all all levels of governance, actions which are in direct conflict with the reservation treaty signed in perpetuity.

For these actions to be legal, Congress must have authorized them. This has not happened and therefore, as the justices rule, these actions are unconstitutional.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#163

Post by tathougies »

We need to end the reservation system. No good will come of this system in the long term. We can end it either by making the reservations explicitly new nations (either fully independent or with protectorate status, like Micronesia or Palau), or they need to be integrated fully into the United States.

In the long run, separate countries in one system does not really work (and yes, the states and feds are overlapping jurisdictions), but Indians have a much more special status under the law. Race based preferences never end well, even if they seem nice to begin with.

Why? Because it is scary that you can actually have governments make laws that Americans may become subject to when those governments have very few duties under American law to respect American rights. Of course, we do not expect other countries to follow American law, but reservations are not set up as other countries. Moreover, the law is strange in that a tribal member in a part of Oklahoma is now due special criminal treatment due to their ancestry, rather than be subject to the laws of Oklahoma.

That is not okay. Either a border needs to be set up, or the tribal governments need to be cast aside or at least become subject to the same kinds of restrictions the states are. Yes, this will require a constitutional amendment, but frankly, special treatment of Native Americans is a relic of a bygone era, much like slavery.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#164

Post by starpilot »

blondie9x wrote: post #13

Honestly after all the Native Americans went through, give them the whole state at least. People in the United States speak and reflect often about the atrocities of slavery. We need to equally reflect on and remember the atrocities against Native Americans.

I'd rather not. In the NorCal (Jefferson) reservations, the natives setup huge nets to catch fish, load them into refrigerated trucks, and sell the catch to San Francisco restaurants. It's devastating to the ecosystem. As with building casinos, or the Grand Canyon Skywalk, they tend to commercialize/exploit as much as they can when they are free from state laws.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#166

Post by monocasa »

tux1968 wrote: post #155
monocasa wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tribes have their own mechanisms for identifying citizens like any other jus sanguinis nationality. The specifics depend on the tribe in question.

So could a tribe welcome every single person who asks to become a tribesman? Does the government just accept whatever the tribe says? Would the government then be required to apply all the same rules and exclusions of law for such new members of the tribe?

Does the government just accept that Israel or Germany get to decide who are Israeli and German citizens?

Tribes are legally foreign nations with a very, very close treaty relationship.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#167

Post by EE84M3i »

antics wrote: post #130

Just a couple notes here from a person of tribal descent (I am Wasq'u, a tribe in the PNW), for those trying to make sense of it. This ruling, as I understand it, resolves a narrow technicality—but that technicality has potentially enormous implications. The Court has only decided that the federal [EDIT: state! sorry!] government has no prosecutorial jurisdiction against citizens of the so-called "Five Civilized Trib…

"The Court has only decided that the federal government has no prosecutorial jurisdiction against citizens of the so-called "Five Civilized Tribes" in about half of OK"

The issue at hand was state government prosecutorial jurisdication, not federal. From the article:

Under U.S. law, tribe members who commit crimes on tribal land cannot be prosecuted in state courts and instead are subject to federal prosecution, which sometimes can be beneficial to defendants.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#168

Post by war1025 »

calvinmorrison wrote: post #158
nostromo wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If congress doesn't change something, then that means they have determined no change is necessary. That isn't an invitation for the executive branch (or judiciary) to overreach. In theory congress could go years without passing a single law, and that would be fine. It would signal that the current laws are sufficient. (As an aside, congress has ceded much of it's lawmaking authority to federal agencies anyway -- so e…

A recent dissent by Justice Thomas is elucidating. "Today’s decision must be recognized for what it is: an effort to avoid a politically controversial but legally correct decision. The Court could have made clear that the solution respondents seek must come from the Legislative Branch. Instead, the majority has decided to prolong [the Department of Homeland Security's (DHS)] initial overreach by providing a stopgap m…

The more I learn about Justice Thomas, the more I like him.

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#169

Post by judge2020 »

YetAnotherNick wrote: post #132
monocasa wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tribes have their own mechanisms for identifying citizens like any other jus sanguinis nationality. The specifics depend on the tribe in question.

How does this work with government? Or let's go into one specific question, can I start my own tribe?

The Bureau of Indian Affairs has a process for being recognized as a tribe[0], and the criteria is at 25 CFR § 83.11 [1].

0: https://www.bia.gov/as-ia/ofa

1: https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/25/83.11

Re: U.S. Supreme Court deems half of Oklahoma a Native American reservation

#170

Post by botwriter »

Now the guys a fucking monster, raping a 4 yearold he should have been hanged decades ago!

But there is something to be said about if the authorities lock you up and you can cause them as much problems as possible. Getting the supreme court to rule that half of a states land belongs to someone else is one of the biggest middle fingers possible!

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