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Why IBM doesn’t agree with Google’s Open Usage Commons for the Istio project

developer.ibm.com

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Re: Why IBM doesn’t agree with Google’s Open Usage Commons for the Istio project

#11

Post by verst »

Google234 wrote: post #5
gtirloni wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Google launches the Open Usage Commons, a new organization for managing open-source trademarks" https://techcrunch.com/2020/07/08/google-launches-the-open-u... And their FAQ: https://openusage.org/faq/#what-is-the-open-usage-commons

It doesn’t seem like this is a huge deal then, unless there’s something happening away from the public view... IBM would have just preferred that another organization had been used.

CNCF is where most people and companies doing anything with Kubernetes (who don't work at Google) would expect Istio to reside.

Re: Why IBM doesn’t agree with Google’s Open Usage Commons for the Istio project

#12

Post by jpalomaki »

Relevant post from Istio blog: https://istio.io/latest/blog/2020/open-usage/

"As one of the founders of the project, Google is the current owner of the Istio trademark. While anyone who is using the software in accordance with the license can use the trademarks, the historic ownership has caused some confusion and uncertainty about who can use the name and how, and at times this confusion has been a barrier to community growth. So today, as part of Istio’s continued commitment to openness, Google is announcing that the Istio trademarks will be transferred to a new organization, the Open Usage Commons, to provide neutral, independent oversight of the marks. [...]"

Re: Why IBM doesn’t agree with Google’s Open Usage Commons for the Istio project

#13

Post by tedk-42 »

It sounds like Google want to continue maintaining the Istio project under the guise of something called the Open Usage Commons.

The other two projects under that are Angular and Gerrit, two other Google products.

IBM's disappointment stems from the fact that they feel Istio is also their baby and that it was suppose to goto the CNCF one day, not Googles own umbrella foundation.

I think the same. Google for the most part want their names associated with these products rather than being something community driven.

Re: Why IBM doesn’t agree with Google’s Open Usage Commons for the Istio project

#14

Post by tannhaeuser »

mehrdada wrote: post #8

For the uninformed, IBM is mostly in the business of selling expensive old-school consultancy solutions by marketing snake oil and packaging open source in proprietary label. Need evidence? Watch this cringeworthy video, for example: https://youtu.be/iNVM8vGCZjQ

IBM contributes to the Linux Foundation (Node.js, webpack, jquery, etc.), Apache, and by owning RedHat, also major parts of Linux development, among other things.

Re: Why IBM doesn’t agree with Google’s Open Usage Commons for the Istio project

#15

Post by deanCommie »

tedk-42 wrote: post #13

It sounds like Google want to continue maintaining the Istio project under the guise of something called the Open Usage Commons. The other two projects under that are Angular and Gerrit, two other Google products. IBM's disappointment stems from the fact that they feel Istio is also their baby and that it was suppose to goto the CNCF one day, not Googles own umbrella foundation. I think the same. Google for the most…

While I generally believe in Google's altruism in their open source contributions, that good faith does not carry forward to any of their open source initiatives when it comes to Google Cloud.

Maybe I'm cynical, but it seems pretty obvious to me that Google embraces OSS with Istio, Kubernetes, etc only out of necessity and being a distant 3rd in the Cloud race, and this is their attempt at some sort of differentiator.

Re: Why IBM doesn’t agree with Google’s Open Usage Commons for the Istio project

#16

Post by Zafira »

Google234 wrote: post #6
fh973 wrote: post #2

It seems a bit that the big players also realize that making money off their technology investments would be nice. Here we have the interest of IBM/Redhat that as a services company benefits from an as open as possible model, whereas Google as a product company notices that their hugely successful k8s play does not turn into business for their cloud product as intended.

Could you please elaborate on what this has to do with this dispute about how to open source the trademark?

My understanding is that there is a faction in Google that believes that making Kubernetes freely available as it did was a massive strategic mistake on the part of Google[1], tantamount to giving away the crown jewels. With this in mind, my impression is that there is a strong suspicion that Google is trying to find a way to continue to control the direction and ability to monetize Istio (and future projects if this works out) which obviously makes IBM irate since it now throws into doubt a slew of potential business opportunities on their end.

[1] https://twitter.com/ThatMightBePaul/status/12798801693443358...

Re: Why IBM doesn’t agree with Google’s Open Usage Commons for the Istio project

#17

Post by londons_explore »

This is entirely about the use of the trademarks/names.

If enough people are upset about it, they can fork the project and take it in their own direction under their own governance.

To me, this is a non-issue. The people doing the work on the project are setting the projects goals and rules, and if you want to do work on the project, nothing stops you, either under their governance/name, or your own.

Re: Why IBM doesn’t agree with Google’s Open Usage Commons for the Istio project

#18

Post by ehsankia »

deanCommie wrote: post #15
tedk-42 wrote: post #13

It sounds like Google want to continue maintaining the Istio project under the guise of something called the Open Usage Commons. The other two projects under that are Angular and Gerrit, two other Google products. IBM's disappointment stems from the fact that they feel Istio is also their baby and that it was suppose to goto the CNCF one day, not Googles own umbrella foundation. I think the same. Google for the most…

While I generally believe in Google's altruism in their open source contributions, that good faith does not carry forward to any of their open source initiatives when it comes to Google Cloud. Maybe I'm cynical, but it seems pretty obvious to me that Google embraces OSS with Istio, Kubernetes, etc only out of necessity and being a distant 3rd in the Cloud race, and this is their attempt at some sort of differentiator…

I don't understand why everything any company does has to either be 100% altruistic or 100% out of greed. Why can't there be a middle ground? Obviously they see the value of open source, especially with projects like TensorFlow, but at the same time, after having spent so much resources developing these, they still want to reserve some control so that their investment can stay useful and agile to their needs. That seems reasonable, and it's not readily obvious that open-governance is the best solution for every project.

Re: Why IBM doesn’t agree with Google’s Open Usage Commons for the Istio project

#19

Post by Lutzb »

josefx wrote: post #10
Google234 wrote: post #3

Can someone explain why this matters? I still don’t get it after reading the blog post or fh973’s comment.

As far as I understand: IBM collaborated with Google on Istio. Google just handed the control over the Istio trademark to its Open Usage Commons group without notifying the Istio community. IBM is understandably unhappy with that.

Based on the blog post its even worse. IBM and Google agreed to hand over the Istio trademark and project to the CNCF when Istio reached a certain maturity. Now it seems that Google unilaterally decided to not honor the agreement and keep the project and trademark by handing it over to their own organisation.

disclaimer: work for IBM, but not on istio.

Re: Why IBM doesn’t agree with Google’s Open Usage Commons for the Istio project

#20

Post by maffydub »

deanCommie wrote: post #15
tedk-42 wrote: post #13

It sounds like Google want to continue maintaining the Istio project under the guise of something called the Open Usage Commons. The other two projects under that are Angular and Gerrit, two other Google products. IBM's disappointment stems from the fact that they feel Istio is also their baby and that it was suppose to goto the CNCF one day, not Googles own umbrella foundation. I think the same. Google for the most…

While I generally believe in Google's altruism in their open source contributions, that good faith does not carry forward to any of their open source initiatives when it comes to Google Cloud. Maybe I'm cynical, but it seems pretty obvious to me that Google embraces OSS with Istio, Kubernetes, etc only out of necessity and being a distant 3rd in the Cloud race, and this is their attempt at some sort of differentiator…

I suspect Google felt they got burned with Kubernetes - doing a lot of the initial development, donating it to the CNCF and then not profiting much from it (e.g. still being distant 3rd in cloud).
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