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Linux Mint drops Ubuntu Snap packages

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Re: Linux Mint drops Ubuntu Snap packages

#371

Post by freetime2 »

> The problems with Linux Mint came to a head when Ubuntu moved Chromium to Snap distribution in Ubuntu 19.10. On the surface, that isn't a problem in and of itself — the Linux Mint project can always start providing its own Chromium APT packages. The problem was the decision to change the Ubuntu chromium-browser APT package itself upstream in Ubuntu. Previously, that package would simply install Chromium directly. With the change, it would instead install the Snap package-management tools first and then install the Snap equivalent of the Chromium package — without making it clear to the user what was happening.

I don't have any issues with this behavior. I find it really annoying when I find a package I am looking for on apt and install it, only to realize that it's way out of date, and I'm supposed to install it via snap or some other means to get a reasonably up to date version. Pointing apt at the snap store is a nice convenience in my opinion.

Re: Linux Mint drops Ubuntu Snap packages

#372

Post by jen20 »

giovannibajo1 wrote: post #159
pdonis wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if this criticism bothers you, then you should never install from any third party apt repositories ever. This does not follow at all. Third-party apt repositories work just like Ubuntu's apt repositories; you have just as much ability to audit, hold, pin, etc. in both cases. If there is a difference in reliability (software from third-party repos is more likely to break your system--and, btw, software from Canonica…

Third-party apt repositories are a security nightmare: you are giving a third party unrestricted semi-silent root access to your computer. I can trust my distro provider with this, but it should be strongly discouraged for third-parties. Instead, installing PPAs to get updated builds of standard packages seems considered “normal”. At least, this doesn’t hold true for snaps.

> Instead, installing PPAs to get updated builds of standard packages seems considered “normal”.

Perhaps we should consider why this is: because people want up-to-date software on their computers (desktop or server), instead of being beholden to whatever version distribution maintainers have decided you can have.

Re: Linux Mint drops Ubuntu Snap packages

#373

Post by freetime2 »

coronadisaster wrote: post #361
coronadisaster wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

not sure if it is only snaps... my galculator takes a couple seconds to open and it isn't a snap... maybe gnome is the issue

why the down vote? I don't even use *buntu... Not that I like snaps, but it just got a lot slower lately

I have no issues with your original comment. But in regards to your "why the down vote?" question, HN's guidelines state:

> Please don't comment about the voting on comments. It never does any good, and it makes boring reading.

Re: Linux Mint drops Ubuntu Snap packages

#374

Post by flukus »

foxylad wrote: post #358
danudey wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From an IT perspective: I can set up an internal APT mirror for my users, servers, test systems, etc., but I can't set up an internal snap mirror as far as I can tell. This means that despite having an internal repo that I can whitelist, some package installations will now arbitrarily require internet access. I can no longer install chromium on a system without access to the internet, and package installation will fa…

There is a big user issue on top of the philosophical and maintenance issues - snaps are SLOOOOOOW. I've only experienced them with two applications, and both took forever to startup compared to the apt-get installed versions I quickly replaced them with. OK, "forever" is hyperbole - it was probably about 5 seconds. But it was enough of an annoyance for me to figure out how to install a deb packaged version. And ever…

A little while ago I discovered snaps can be slow even when you're not using them. I had the fun of trying to log into an online job interview and couldn't because snapd was hogging the CPU doing god knows what. Restarted and the same happened, the machine became usable about 20 minutes later. Little "surprises" like that are infuriating.

> so my next OS upgrade will be Mint or pure Debian

I've moved one machine to debian stable and haven't looked back. There are a few teething issues like /usr/sbin not being in the default path, some sudo issues, the installer isn't as grandma friendly, but it's rock solid and doesn't nag me about updating 137 packages of things I've never heard of needing an update.

Re: Linux Mint drops Ubuntu Snap packages

#375

Post by erik_seaberg »

jen20 wrote: post #372
giovannibajo1 wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Third-party apt repositories are a security nightmare: you are giving a third party unrestricted semi-silent root access to your computer. I can trust my distro provider with this, but it should be strongly discouraged for third-parties. Instead, installing PPAs to get updated builds of standard packages seems considered “normal”. At least, this doesn’t hold true for snaps.

> Instead, installing PPAs to get updated builds of standard packages seems considered “normal”. Perhaps we should consider why this is: because people want up-to-date software on their computers (desktop or server), instead of being beholden to whatever version distribution maintainers have decided you can have.

If you don't want software that has been configured and tested to work together by a distro maintainer, you're volunteering to do that work yourself and become the sole maintainer of a bleeding-edge distro with a very small audience.

Re: Linux Mint drops Ubuntu Snap packages

#376

Post by jen20 »

erik_seaberg wrote: post #375
jen20 wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Instead, installing PPAs to get updated builds of standard packages seems considered “normal”. Perhaps we should consider why this is: because people want up-to-date software on their computers (desktop or server), instead of being beholden to whatever version distribution maintainers have decided you can have.

If you don't want software that has been configured and tested to work together by a distro maintainer, you're volunteering to do that work yourself and become the sole maintainer of a bleeding-edge distro with a very small audience.

That's fine - and why I use macOS as a desktop: because Homebrew consistently gives me up-to-date versions of the software I want. If I were to use Linux on the desktop, it would be a distribution which also allows this with minimal fuss - almost certainly not a Debian derivative.

I understand the _reasoning_ behind the distribution model - I just don't think it works very well, and apparently nor do all the people who use PPAs in the course of everyday use to get up-to-date software.

It's also worth noting that FreeBSD does not have this problem - ports are updated _much_ more often than most Linux distributions seem to be.

Re: Linux Mint drops Ubuntu Snap packages

#377

Post by dang »

dilandau wrote: post #260
kd913 wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Red herring. The Linux Mint teams' main complaints have to do with issues around the way snap wrests control from the user. Like Linux Mint is doing the same? There is no control being lost by using Ubuntu versus Mint. I could remove snapd there without people making that decision for me. Worse would be Mint's decision of removing the only FOSS built version of chromium without offering an alternative in place. Cano…

Another red herring, and also moving the goalposts. Quit shilling.

If you keep breaking the site guidelines, we're going to have to ban you. Would you mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and sticking to the rules when posting here?

Re: Linux Mint drops Ubuntu Snap packages

#378

Post by jrockway »

heavyset_go wrote: post #216
psanford wrote: post #7

From the linked announcement: https://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=3906 > Applications in this store cannot be patched, or pinned. You can’t audit them, hold them, modify them or even point snap to a different store. You’ve as much empowerment with this as if you were using proprietary software, i.e. none. This is in effect similar to a commercial proprietary solution, but with two major differences: It runs as root, and it…

My favorite anecdote about Snap is the development team's opinion when it comes to users wishing to relocate their ~/snap directory elsewhere. It's a commonly requested feature and being able to move it would follow the Freedesktop.org spec, but the developers don't care.

Just hack your ls binary to not show the directory ;)

Re: Linux Mint drops Ubuntu Snap packages

#379

Post by dcow »

foxylad wrote: post #358
danudey wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From an IT perspective: I can set up an internal APT mirror for my users, servers, test systems, etc., but I can't set up an internal snap mirror as far as I can tell. This means that despite having an internal repo that I can whitelist, some package installations will now arbitrarily require internet access. I can no longer install chromium on a system without access to the internet, and package installation will fa…

There is a big user issue on top of the philosophical and maintenance issues - snaps are SLOOOOOOW. I've only experienced them with two applications, and both took forever to startup compared to the apt-get installed versions I quickly replaced them with. OK, "forever" is hyperbole - it was probably about 5 seconds. But it was enough of an annoyance for me to figure out how to install a deb packaged version. And ever…

Sending some encouragement your way: try Debian. I bet money you won't even notice it's not Ubuntu. Or you will, because your software will launch when you ask it to. I'm super happy with Debian lately. I know it used to be the old neck beard slow and steady distro, but honestly these days packages get updates rather timely and it doesn't feel like the Debian of 10 years ago. And you can always run Debian testing with almost no overhead if you want the shinnies. That's what I do and have only had to deal with gnome not starting after a reboot once XD

Re: Linux Mint drops Ubuntu Snap packages

#380

Post by catalogia »

danielheath wrote: post #306
inetknght wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The next problem is ... how do I ship updates? ...why not make a new release and ship that? That's the way package managers work . Developer makes a package. User installs the package. Then when developer fixes some bug and releases a new version the user can install the new version when the user decides it's necessary. The whole point about this is that it's user-centric. That's good.

It’s largely a good thing but it’s unreasonable not to mention the “flood of bug reports about issues that have since been fixed” effect that comes with manual updates. This has burnt a few projects pretty badly (especially where distros have packaged an old version and never updated it).

Taking power away from users to address that inconvenience may be the status quo in the proprietary software industry, but it's totally over the line for user-respecting FOSS software. Not least because, once a developer acquires that power over users they very frequently succumb to the temptation to abuse their userbase as involuntary beta testers for half-baked bullshit which users struggle to opt-out of.
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