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Linux Mint drops Ubuntu Snap packages

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Re: Linux Mint drops Ubuntu Snap packages

#211

Post by Darmody »

Just today I switched from Ubuntu to Pop_OS (I hate that name). Unity was giving me some trouble as it's starting to conflict with all the newer stuff so I had to make a decision.

I dislike Gnome Shell. It's clean and fast but the GUI is "locked" to the main monitor and I can't even switch windows without looking at it.

But I love how the distro is made focusing on a good user experience. To give you an example, the shop (software center) allows me to choose between deb packages and flatpak if available. Sounds like something obvious, but after having snaps shovelled down my throat when I was thinking I was installing deb packages, this means I can finally trust my distro again.

Now the only thing I need is a good DE. Maybe the next decade.

Re: Linux Mint drops Ubuntu Snap packages

#212

Post by rlpb »

_nodg wrote: post #135

I haven't been impressed with snap as a user. The jetbrains stuff keeps several versions around by default, which eats disk space. I'm sure there's a way to change that, but I haven't cared enough to dig. The other day I ran `apt install chromium-browser` on a brand new install; it chose to install via snap (grr) and then snapd promptly crashed ("Waiting for restart" -- https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/installing-the-chr…

> The jetbrains stuff keeps several versions around by default, which eats disk space. I'm sure there's a way to change that, but I haven't cared enough to dig.

See "refresh.retain" from https://snapcraft.io/docs/keeping-snaps-up-to-date - the point is that you can revert an update instantly.

Re: Linux Mint drops Ubuntu Snap packages

#213

Post by simion314 »

Daishiman wrote: post #190
simion314 wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

let me clear some things up and tell me if I am wrong, link me to the correction and I will apologize. - Mint uses Ubuntu repositories - Canonical pushes the changes they want into this repos, this changes are probably done by scripts that build source code on Canonical servers. - the Ubuntu repos also contain binary blobs - when a Mint user does an update he gets the binary directly from Canonical servers, there is…

The differences are the following: * Nonfree software is generally demarcated as such. There is nonfree software that has available source (in the case of some codecs), other that comes as blobs. * The Chromium package is open source, and in most distros comes as binary built from the toolchain set up by the package maintainers. In all free software distros if you don't want to download the binary, you can download t…

You are making my point, the "trust" is not the issue , the issue is "control". Canonical has the control on the snap store and Mint can insert their customization on top.

Again, if Canonical is evil and can't be trusted why I would run Mint? Do the developers run any scripts to alert me if Canonical slips some bad thing in a binary?

I think is fine if they remove snaps but IMO is stupid to accuse Canonical to be evil and not trustworthy while you blindly trust their repos.

Re: Linux Mint drops Ubuntu Snap packages

#214

Post by qchris »

commoner wrote: post #110
pjfin123 wrote: post #84

If desktop Linux is ever going to be mainstream there needs to be an easy to use "app store" where users can use a GUI to install apps which need to be sandboxed like on a mobile phone with defined permissions. Snapcraft is way ahead of Flatpak on this and the current Ubuntu setup works well. On Ubuntu you can go to the Ubuntu software app (gui) search for software and it blends apt results with snap results. This re…

> On Ubuntu you can go to the Ubuntu software app (gui) search for software and it blends apt results with snap results. GNOME Software and KDE Discover support both Flatpak and the distribution's native package manager together. For example implementations on Ubuntu-based distributions that work out of the box, see the elementaryOS AppCenter and the Pop!_OS Pop!_Shop: https://github.com/elementary/appcenter https://…

Just wanted to +1 Pop's Pop!_Shop. I have machines running both Ubuntu and Pop!_OS, and for some reason (not sure if it's because of the underlying tech/architecture differences, System76 curation, or what), the Pop package management has always been a better experience than Ubuntu's.

Re: Linux Mint drops Ubuntu Snap packages

#215

Post by _nodg »

simosx wrote: post #193
_nodg wrote: post #135

I haven't been impressed with snap as a user. The jetbrains stuff keeps several versions around by default, which eats disk space. I'm sure there's a way to change that, but I haven't cared enough to dig. The other day I ran `apt install chromium-browser` on a brand new install; it chose to install via snap (grr) and then snapd promptly crashed ("Waiting for restart" -- https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/installing-the-chr…

By default, snapd keeps three copies of older versions of a snap package. It does so, so that you can revert easily to a previous version if the latest version does not work. You can disable this feature by setting the appropriate key to `1`. There is a negative sentiment around snap packages. Even if you are an experienced Linux user, you fall into that negative sentiment and even if an issue is small, it is a deal-…

> Even if you are an experienced Linux user, you fall into that negative sentiment and even if an issue is small, it is a deal-breaker for you.

I don't think that's fair. Apt/deb is solid, battle tested, and works. Introducing snap with this kind of instability is the source of the negativity.

> The "chromium" issue has been explained in 2019.

And the fact that it still crashes in 2020, on a flagship package on a modern laptop, is really really bad. In fact I had the same crash happen during a dist-upgrade on another laptop(!) which locked up the entire dist-upgrade.

If apt is going to call snap, it needs to be rock solid.

Re: Linux Mint drops Ubuntu Snap packages

#216

Post by heavyset_go »

psanford wrote: post #7

From the linked announcement: https://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=3906 > Applications in this store cannot be patched, or pinned. You can’t audit them, hold them, modify them or even point snap to a different store. You’ve as much empowerment with this as if you were using proprietary software, i.e. none. This is in effect similar to a commercial proprietary solution, but with two major differences: It runs as root, and it…

My favorite anecdote about Snap is the development team's opinion when it comes to users wishing to relocate their ~/snap directory elsewhere.

It's a commonly requested feature and being able to move it would follow the Freedesktop.org spec, but the developers don't care.

Re: Linux Mint drops Ubuntu Snap packages

#217

Post by _nodg »

rlpb wrote: post #212
_nodg wrote: post #135

I haven't been impressed with snap as a user. The jetbrains stuff keeps several versions around by default, which eats disk space. I'm sure there's a way to change that, but I haven't cared enough to dig. The other day I ran `apt install chromium-browser` on a brand new install; it chose to install via snap (grr) and then snapd promptly crashed ("Waiting for restart" -- https://forum.snapcraft.io/t/installing-the-chr…

> The jetbrains stuff keeps several versions around by default, which eats disk space. I'm sure there's a way to change that, but I haven't cared enough to dig. See "refresh.retain" from https://snapcraft.io/docs/keeping-snaps-up-to-date - the point is that you can revert an update instantly.

I mean I get it. I don't think the defaults are right though. It could be smarter - automatic purge 7 days after user has used new version, or something along those lines. Keeping 3 versions just in case doesn't sound like anybody's ideal.

Re: Linux Mint drops Ubuntu Snap packages

#218

Post by blendergeek »

pjfin123 wrote: post #136
kelnos wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If desktop Linux is ever going to be mainstream there needs to be an easy to use "app store" where users can use a GUI to install apps which need to be sandboxed like on a mobile phone with defined permissions. Curious... do you think that the world has moved on from the "download from website and run installer" model? Obviously that has serious drawbacks from a security perspective, but up until less than a decade…

No one is offering to build an alternate store for snaps, Flatpak is building an entirely different executable.

Why would anyone offer an alternate store for snaps?

Ubuntu seems to have made clear that the snap client will not be able to connect to alternative stores. What is the point of building an alternative store.

Further snap is controlled by one company. Canonical has a history of developing groundbreaking new things for the Linux community before unceremoniously killing them off.

* Ubuntu One * Unity Desktop * Ubuntu Touch * Upstart Init system

Do you see a trend here? There is a reason the community is skeptical of something completely controlled by Canonical.

Re: Linux Mint drops Ubuntu Snap packages

#220

Post by emerongi »

Snaps are super laggy. GNOME calculator on Ubuntu runs in a snap and it is baffling that whoever made the decision to package it in a snap by default was OK with the fact that it takes 2 seconds to launch a basic calculator on a 2017 laptop (edit: re-tested, it took 5 seconds).

To top it off, a couple months ago my calculator disappeared. For some reason I have been having problems with snap applications disappearing for a while now, even though I have made no configuration changes. How fun it is to discover that such a basic tool just no longer exists on your machine, way to fuck up a morning.

I get that snaps make application distribution easier, but please don't do it at the expense of the user. I've had more success with Flatpak and AppImages, but not enough experience with any of them to judge which is best.

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