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Linux Mint drops Ubuntu Snap packages

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Re: Linux Mint drops Ubuntu Snap packages

#161

Post by still_grokking »

lawl wrote: post #153
still_grokking wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a user I don't like neither Snaps (that for sure as this is Cannonical only) nor FlatPaks (as they seem conceptually a "80% solution" which combines the problems of package systems with the problems of self-contianed apps, but don't improve on anything). For me the only acceptable solution besides proper .debs are AppImages. AppImage doesn't try to "replace" the package management for desktop apps like the former…

I tend to agree with you, but I really like updating all my software with one click/command. So out of curiosity: My application is already self contained and statically linked, so no AppImage needed, but it behaves like one, you can just run download and run it everywhere. And so what you're describing will be for sure an option for those who like it (in fact currently it's the only option in alpha). How would you l…

That's easy. It should be officially in Debian. ;-)

Stuff like AppImage, static binaries, Docker & Co are for me at least a kind of "last resort". Even I'm using Docker a lot[1] to try things out I first look for an AppImage in those cases. But when I decide that some app should become part of my system I will look for a proper package. One source to rule them all…

[1] Docker is a big problem on it's own. But as I can't avoid to have it installed because of work I decided I could use it at least to "keep experiments under control". Before I was forced to have Docker I've used systemd-nspawn for that use-case.

Re: Linux Mint drops Ubuntu Snap packages

#162

Post by skykooler »

fractal618 wrote: post #16
jrockway wrote: post #6

I've been kind of disappointed by Snap. It seemed like it was a way to always have the latest version of software you care about available, but in practice, nobody updates their Snaps. I used it to get a newer version of Go, and while it is more recent than what comes with Ubuntu, it's still not the latest version. Apparently Some Guy updates it on a volunteer basis when he remembers, so it's nearly useless. Even if…

Some will argue that 32ms is negligible, but I don't believe it is.

And that's just for command line programs. GUI programs packages as snaps have much greater startup costs. It takes the Ubuntu calculator 4-5 seconds to launch. It takes Mumble 12 seconds to launch. The latter launches in 2 seconds as a native package, and the former, well, is a calculator app - I don't have access to a non-snap version of the Ubuntu calculator anymore but is should launch virtually instantly.

Re: Linux Mint drops Ubuntu Snap packages

#164

Post by slenk »

kelnos wrote: post #155
bityard wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might like Linux Mint or Pop OS, both of which are re-spins of Ubuntu without snaps. Or for that matter, regular old Debian probably has 99% of what you need.

Adding a vote for regular old Debian. My strategy is to run Debian testing, and then 6 months or so after it's promoted to stable, switch back to the new testing branch. This way I get a reasonably stable experience (Debian's view of "testing" is at least as stable as many other distros' view of "stable"), avoid the large churn in testing right after a new stable series is released, and still get to use all the newes…

Been using debian for a few years and loved it. Ubuntu calling their own website on every shell login is a serious problem

Re: Linux Mint drops Ubuntu Snap packages

#165

Post by pdonis »

giovannibajo1 wrote: post #159
pdonis wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if this criticism bothers you, then you should never install from any third party apt repositories ever. This does not follow at all. Third-party apt repositories work just like Ubuntu's apt repositories; you have just as much ability to audit, hold, pin, etc. in both cases. If there is a difference in reliability (software from third-party repos is more likely to break your system--and, btw, software from Canonica…

Third-party apt repositories are a security nightmare: you are giving a third party unrestricted semi-silent root access to your computer. I can trust my distro provider with this, but it should be strongly discouraged for third-parties. Instead, installing PPAs to get updated builds of standard packages seems considered “normal”. At least, this doesn’t hold true for snaps.

> I can trust my distro provider with this, but it should be strongly discouraged for third-parties.

Again, it all depends on how much you trust the third party compared to how much you trust your distro provider. I don't have many third party PPAs installed on my computer because there aren't many third parties I trust that much. But there aren't zero either.

Also, a big part of my trust of my distro provider is based on having source code forced to be open, and another big part is based on them not doing things behind my back. Snaps significantly erode both of these aspects of trust.

Re: Linux Mint drops Ubuntu Snap packages

#166

Post by commoner »

kd913 wrote: post #137
commoner wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You haven't really at all explained any justifiable reason for Canonical to open source it. I've explained why it would be in the users' interest for Canonical to open source the Snap store: it reduces vendor lock-in and allows the users to enjoy the benefits of open source software (the ability to use, study, share, and improve the software with no restrictions). Whether open sourcing the Snap server benefits Cano…

No you think it would be in the users' interest but it absolutely isn't. I'm willing to bet money you haven't looked at launchpad's source code at all. Nor have you or anyone else considered operating their own. That is how most of the Ubuntu based distros right now are already getting their software. If Canonical goes down, a huge part of the usable linux market goes down with it. Possibly Linux Mint too, unless im…

> No you think it would be in the users' interest but it absolutely isn't.

If you don't understand the value of free and open source software, you're not obligated to use it. The maintainers of Linux Mint and other Linux distributions do understand, and that is one of the reasons they have rejected Snap.

> I'm willing to bet money you haven't looked at launchpad's source code at all. Nor have you or anyone else considered operating their own.

Your assumption is wrong and you've lost the bet. Additionally, Flatpak is available and Flatpak servers are already being hosted independently:

https://www.google.com/search?q=%22our%20flatpak%20repo%22

> You are not vendor locked in. You can install flatpak, install via apt, appimages etc... Canonical doesn't ban the removal of snapd from ubuntu distros.

Canonical has already transformed apt installs of Chromium into Snap installs, which motivated Linux Mint to reject Snap. Vendor lock-in is not black and white. For example, Android users can also install F-Droid or a variety of third-party app stores, but considering Google Play's default status on Android, most users are effectively locked in. The same applies to Canonical's handling of Chromium, and the Linux community is opposing this to discourage Canonical from continuing this dark pattern.

> half the fragmentation for pointless nonsense like packaging and distributions has harmed the community far more

Snap increases the fragmentation, and is more hostile to the FOSS community than all of the other options because its server is closed source.

Re: Linux Mint drops Ubuntu Snap packages

#167

Post by [deleted] »

lawl wrote: post #94
jonquark wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can see why Snap is like it is from Canonial's perspective - but from the User perspective it seems like FlatPaks[1] are much better and address the issues that this article raises [1] https://flathub.org/home (Disclaimer: I'm talking in a personal capacity but the company I work for in my day job now owns Red Hat - I don't work on Linux Operating Systems).

> but from the User perspective it seems like FlatPaks[1] are much better and address the issues that this article raises This is interesting, because the last few days I was actually working on packaging an application of mine as a snap/flatpak. From my PoV, they both have their fair share of issues. Snaps enforce a sandbox, which I think is actually a good idea, because the desktop security model is somewhat broken…

[deleted]

Re: Linux Mint drops Ubuntu Snap packages

#168

Post by kd913 »

rdschouw wrote: post #125
kd913 wrote: post #12

The reason for why the backend for the snap store hasn't been opensourced has been explained multiple times. Namely that it would be expensive to open source it with little benefit in return. Canonical already spent a large amount of investment opensourcing launchpad and nobody other than them operate it. Mainly because the majority of the costs are for operating an instance which most other distros aren't willing to…

I do not think anyone disputes Ubuntu's goals or intentions. The problem is that the snap store is managed by Ubuntu without any community oversight. By not releasing source code to the store, other distributions cannot create their own. These are the reasons what is holding snap back for broader adoption.

>The problem is that the snap store is managed by Ubuntu without any community oversight.

That is already the case for most repos/launchpad on Ubuntu but people don't really have too much problems with that.

>By not releasing source code to the store, other distributions cannot create their own.

Other distributions wouldn't because the operational cost of operating it is too high.

>These are the reasons what is holding snap back for broader adoption.

Snap isn't being held back by adoption. It has more first party publisher support and more installs.

Re: Linux Mint drops Ubuntu Snap packages

#169

Post by kd913 »

dilandau wrote: post #152
kd913 wrote: post #12

The reason for why the backend for the snap store hasn't been opensourced has been explained multiple times. Namely that it would be expensive to open source it with little benefit in return. Canonical already spent a large amount of investment opensourcing launchpad and nobody other than them operate it. Mainly because the majority of the costs are for operating an instance which most other distros aren't willing to…

>snapd not open-source. Red herring. The Linux Mint teams' main complaints have to do with issues around the way snap wrests control from the user. >I will remind people that the most popular PPA to this day is a Java PPA being run by some 3rd party that doesn't offer Java. That PPA has root access to thousands of machines. Imagine strawman-ing this hard.

>Red herring. The Linux Mint teams' main complaints have to do with issues around the way snap wrests control from the user.

Like Linux Mint is doing the same? There is no control being lost by using Ubuntu versus Mint. I could remove snapd there without people making that decision for me.

Worse would be Mint's decision of removing the only FOSS built version of chromium without offering an alternative in place. Canonical only installed the chromium snap because they did not have the resources to support a deb version instead.

>Imagine strawman-ing this hard.

It isn't a strawman. It is precisely what their reasoning was and it makes perfect sense. The snap store has already seen people attempt to install cryptominers. There is no way in Flatpak of banning known malicious flathub repos.

Re: Linux Mint drops Ubuntu Snap packages

#170

Post by driverdan »

pjfin123 wrote: post #84

If desktop Linux is ever going to be mainstream there needs to be an easy to use "app store" where users can use a GUI to install apps which need to be sandboxed like on a mobile phone with defined permissions. Snapcraft is way ahead of Flatpak on this and the current Ubuntu setup works well. On Ubuntu you can go to the Ubuntu software app (gui) search for software and it blends apt results with snap results. This re…

> If desktop Linux is ever going to be mainstream there needs to be an easy to use "app store"

Why? Desktop computers worked just fine for 35 or so years before app stores showed up. It's completely unnecessary.

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