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Linux Mint drops Ubuntu Snap packages

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Re: Linux Mint drops Ubuntu Snap packages

#81

Post by Daishiman »

simion314 wrote: post #55
psanford wrote: post #7

From the linked announcement: https://blog.linuxmint.com/?p=3906 > Applications in this store cannot be patched, or pinned. You can’t audit them, hold them, modify them or even point snap to a different store. You’ve as much empowerment with this as if you were using proprietary software, i.e. none. This is in effect similar to a commercial proprietary solution, but with two major differences: It runs as root, and it…

But Mint are too lazy to build their own packages so they use Ubuntu binaries that are installed as root, this is IMO a PR move and a hypocrisy, if you don't trust Canonical don't use Mint use Debian or some distribution that has the capacity to host and build their binaries.

As long as you can audit the source and build chain what's the problem?

Re: Linux Mint drops Ubuntu Snap packages

#82

Post by andrewshadura »

kd913 wrote: post #44
ufo wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious... what is that Java PPA that you are talking about? I tried searching for it but I couldn't find anywhere that had a list of the most downloaded PPAs.

This is the PPA. https://launchpad.net/%7Ewebupd8team/+archive/ubuntu/java For years it has been recommended as the mechanism for installing Java on Ubuntu installs.

Why would anyone use this instead of distro packages?

Re: Linux Mint drops Ubuntu Snap packages

#83

Post by madeofpalk »

berkes wrote: post #45
madeofpalk wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The reason for why the backend for the snap store hasn't been opensourced has been explained multiple times. I just think it's weird that a supposedly open source company like Canonical would build close source infrastructure. Like, just develop it in the open to begin with?

Better even: design it to be self-hostable from scratch. Edit: by making it a self-contained executable, a .deb or even a set of ansible scripts. I understand that some complex interconnected ball-of-spaghetti of microservices makes little sense to open-source, b/c no-one can run it. But that is essentially saying: we never wanted people to run it themselves, and now we are at a point that no-one can run it, so why b…

Sure, there's "even better" ways to go above what they did, but it seems to be than an open source company would at least by default develop open source software.

They had to have actively chosen to build this closed-source software, no.

Re: Linux Mint drops Ubuntu Snap packages

#84

Post by pjfin123 »

If desktop Linux is ever going to be mainstream there needs to be an easy to use "app store" where users can use a GUI to install apps which need to be sandboxed like on a mobile phone with defined permissions. Snapcraft is way ahead of Flatpak on this and the current Ubuntu setup works well. On Ubuntu you can go to the Ubuntu software app (gui) search for software and it blends apt results with snap results. This really seems like the best way to do things, common packages can be installed through a traditional package manager while more niche ones can be installed with snap. A lot of people are mad at Canonical for not open sourcing the backend but no one seems to be offering to build one. Anyways the really important part of snap is having a unified executable for Linux (which Canonical has made open source).Snap makes it really easy for developers to target Linux with a unified executable which they won't do otherwise due to Desktop Linux's small market share.

Re: Linux Mint drops Ubuntu Snap packages

#85

Post by the_af »

osd5 wrote: post #11

Installed ubuntu 18.04, purged snapd. It was back after `do-release-upgrade` to 20.04

I installed 18.04 a couple of weeks ago, after software I needed didn't work for 16.04. I don't need snaps and want to continue using .debs (which so far I'm doing, but some snap apps come preinstaled).

What is the cleanest way of ditch the snap system and its preinstalled apps? I'm assuming this won't break anything important.

PS: I'm not planning on installing 20.04 any time soon. At least not until the dust really settles. I don't see the point of running the absolutely latest version until there is a strong, evidence-backed consensus on its strong and weak points.

Re: Linux Mint drops Ubuntu Snap packages

#86

Post by kd913 »

commoner wrote: post #67
kd913 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>There is no downside to Flatpak's support for multiple repositories and ability to self-host repositories. There are always tradeoffs. I would argue there are advantages for having a trusted party vetting my software repos. It's why I even use Ubuntu because I trust Canonical to make some sane decisions when vetting their repositories. You give multiple repository support and suddenly users have to one find a way to…

> You give multiple repository support and suddenly users have to one find a way to add another repo, and second there is no way of removing software from those repositories if they do end up malicious. > Ubuntu is the version of Linux designed to be used by your grandmother. They want to make it as easy as possible for users to install trusted/safe software from both proprietary/free vendors. By default, GNOME Softw…

None of those 3 links are provided by Microsoft, Spotify or Jetbrains. Yes they are there, but they are published from 3rd parties. Why exactly do you think that is?

The microsoft, spotify and Jetbrains software comes directly from their respective publishers. Problems are supported and debugged directly. That is a major difference.

Re: Linux Mint drops Ubuntu Snap packages

#88

Post by kemayo »

tyree731 wrote: post #70
blendergeek wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Namely that it would be expensive to open source it with little benefit in return. Would you describe exactly what will be expensive in releasing the source code to software that was developed in house? Does it have lots of dependencies on proprietary software? If so, why? > Namely they want one location to find software, and one location to serve software. And this, is the killer. This is exactly what the people a…

> Would you describe exactly what will be expensive in releasing the source code to software that was developed in house? Does it have lots of dependencies on proprietary software? If so, why? If all you're doing is taking an internal repository and hosting it externally, then it takes no time. But if you make sure licenses are being used correctly throughout the code, audit to make sure no internal secrets accidenta…

Isn't it a bad look for Canonical, a major open source company, to not have developed core software for their major open source product in an open source friendly manner?

Re: Linux Mint drops Ubuntu Snap packages

#89

Post by michaelmrose »

kd913 wrote: post #63
commoner wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no downside to Flatpak's support for multiple repositories and ability to self-host repositories. GNOME Software and KDE Discover both set Flathub as the default repository, which serves as the primary software source, and users can optionally add more repositories if they choose to do so. Users who don't want additional repositories can simply stay with Flathub without having to do anything. The Snap server…

>There is no downside to Flatpak's support for multiple repositories and ability to self-host repositories. There are always tradeoffs. I would argue there are advantages for having a trusted party vetting my software repos. It's why I even use Ubuntu because I trust Canonical to make some sane decisions when vetting their repositories. You give multiple repository support and suddenly users have to one find a way to…

Can we not pretend that the single source nature is anything other than a money grab? It's pretty clear that all you have to do to ensure grandma doesn't add sources is make adding it require the cli.

Re: Linux Mint drops Ubuntu Snap packages

#90

Post by rlpb »

blendergeek wrote: post #21
kd913 wrote: post #12

The reason for why the backend for the snap store hasn't been opensourced has been explained multiple times. Namely that it would be expensive to open source it with little benefit in return. Canonical already spent a large amount of investment opensourcing launchpad and nobody other than them operate it. Mainly because the majority of the costs are for operating an instance which most other distros aren't willing to…

> Namely that it would be expensive to open source it with little benefit in return. Would you describe exactly what will be expensive in releasing the source code to software that was developed in house? Does it have lots of dependencies on proprietary software? If so, why? > Namely they want one location to find software, and one location to serve software. And this, is the killer. This is exactly what the people a…

> Does it have lots of dependencies on proprietary software?

Not so much proprietary software (those dependencies would be owned by Canonical and therefore released in the same lot) but I understand there is considerable dependency on deployment machinery. Documentation for that machinery will need to be split out into private (contains secrets, references to customers, etc) and public (consumable by someone looking to replicate a Snap store deployment) and so on.

> Rather than trusting software because it has verifiable source code, we now trust software because it came from a store that removes well known malware.

The world has moved to that. I don't like it. I would prefer to install only distribution-curated software. However that doesn't help me get a bunch of software that isn't available that way. Where it is (and at the version I need), I use it. Note that this particular statement of yours applies equally to AppImage, Flatpak and everything else that isn't distribution-curated. It's not just an argument against Snaps.

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