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Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains

nytimes.com

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Re: Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains

#411

Post by anders_p »

arcticbull wrote: post #354
ncallaway wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would generally go for "as few as possible given the circumstances". Given how much higher they are over other nations—even taking into account excess deaths—I would say they have failed that metric.

You cannot know that until after the pandemic is over. The Swedes are betting that nobody in the world will be spared from COVID and therefore the delta in deaths is temporary. They are front-loading it while attempting to keep the economic impacts as low as possible. They anticipate the rest of the world will be contending with shutdowns, re-openings, shutdowns, re-openings, and when all is said and done, the death…

They haven't seen any benefit to their economy compared to other nordic countries at all.

Partly because they are export dependant and nobody's buying & partly because enough swedes are staying home (not going to pubs etc.) for the economy to tank but not enough to avoid 10 times as many deaths as their neighbours.

So, yes, time will tell. But for now they are getting the worst of both:

Many dead and no economic benefit.

Re: Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains

#412

Post by redisman »

claudeganon wrote: post #408
cortic wrote: post #286

Deaths per 1M population are significantly higher in Italy(577), Spain(607) and the UK(654) than they are in Sweden(539). And Sweden have been a lot more honest in counting than most countries. There seems to be a drive to discredit the inalienable human rights approach, in this case by implying it was a financial decision; but i have to say i am impressed by the way they have handled this situation, the only respons…

South Korea never had lockdowns, outside of shutting down bars when they traced some superspreading events back to them. The idea that they’re somehow less committed to human rights when they’ve preserved freedom of movement, while avoiding mass deaths, is laughable on its face.

South Korea, Taiwan, Japan etc. have all done so much better that comparing the responses of “the west” is just nitpicking extremely flawed plans and executions. I know who I’m going to look for guidance in any future outbreaks

Re: Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains

#413

Post by kalleboo »

pengaru wrote: post #83

It seems obviously wasteful to keep such businesses open where most the paying customers won't be showing up during a pandemic anyways. Why even pay to have the lights on? You need to mothball the operation ASAP and lobby for government assistance for the duration. I was just poking at rough figures last night out of curiosity regarding when the other end of this arrives in terms of 60% herd immunity for the US. Just…

> It seems obviously wasteful to keep such businesses open where most the paying customers won't be showing up during a pandemic anyways

In Sweden people still seem happy to go out to bars and restaurants, even in the middle of a pandemic. It's non-stop work for the government to shut down venues that are crowded beyond the allowed covid19 congestion regulation.

This whole "even if restaurants and bars were open, nobody would go to them" narrative just doesn't bear out in reality.

We're seeing the same thing in the UK now as well.

Re: Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains

#414

Post by robbiep »

mirimir wrote: post #351
ljf wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't forget that deaths are just one measure of the damage covid brings. My wife is/was a fit and healthy 40yo no underlying conditions - she had covid 4 months ago and has barely been able to climb the stairs some days. The 'crazy' thing is that her actual covid infection wasn't hat bad and she had no shortness of breath etc at the time. But here she is with symptoms very like ME some 100+ days later. Obviously tha…

Sorry :( Maybe she carries that susceptibility sequence from Neanderthals. It'd also be good to focus on isolating people with that and other relevant genetic markers.

So basically focus on isolating all people above 60, all people with comorbidities, and any with genetic sequences that are ill-defined, likely many of them that we haven’t uncovered, and more expensive to test for than Covid screening?

Easy.

Or lockdowns, easy accessibility to testing and good contract tracing. Which has worked well in lots of countries

Re: Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains

#415

Post by CaptainZapp »

arcticbull wrote: post #381
freyr wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Swedes are betting that nobody in the world will be spared from COVID It's also a bet that medical treatments won't improve and a vaccine won't be developed.

Developed in time, yes. So far, at least using the US as a benchmark, it's not.

I'm not sure if it's a good idea to use the US as a benchmark for any thing Covid.

Re: Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains

#416

Post by faizshah »

cortic wrote: post #286

Deaths per 1M population are significantly higher in Italy(577), Spain(607) and the UK(654) than they are in Sweden(539). And Sweden have been a lot more honest in counting than most countries. There seems to be a drive to discredit the inalienable human rights approach, in this case by implying it was a financial decision; but i have to say i am impressed by the way they have handled this situation, the only respons…

Endangering the lives of others has never been an inalienable right. If not wearing a mask or being physically close to others currently breaks the non aggression principle it is reasonable for society to impose temporary measures until it no longer breaks the NAP. The countries that dealt with SARS understand this and have had the best responses globally.

Re: Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains

#417

Post by [deleted] »

kalleboo wrote: post #377
stallmanite wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would work on a vaccine really slow down? There are many thousands of patients and how many does a vaccine study require in practice?

https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-disappearing-so-fast-...

[deleted]

Re: Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains

#418

Post by whoisthemachine »

TMWNN wrote: post #355
whoisthemachine wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It has much less to do with people dying directly from Covid and more to do with the sheer number of severe Covid cases overloading healthcare systems to the point that patients with other serious conditions can't receive medical treatment. This occurred in Italy, New York City, etc., and is now being seen in some cities in Texas and Florida. This condition is what incentivizes societies to lock down, not just the me…

>This occurred in Italy, New York City, etc., and is now being seen in some cities in Texas and Florida. Not Florida. An article from yesterday ( https://www.news4jax.com/news/local/2020/06/18/florida-has-l... ) ominously claims that "less than 25%" of ICU beds are available in the state, but actually read it and see that 90% occupancy rates are normal, and only a few of those in the ICU are COVID19 cases. Texas? Let…

Thanks for this response, its a good counterpoint with solid evidence, but the main point still stands - societies aren't merely shutting down because of a virus - it's because of a fear of healthcare systems being overwhelmed.

Re: Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains

#419

Post by Izkata »

bhupy wrote: post #217
_bxg1 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's all been reactionary. Individual states and even cities are opening up when people clamor for summertime fun, and then frantically closing back down when the inevitable spike hits a couple weeks later. There is no attempt at cohesion or long-term planning. There is no leadership. They're all just winging it.

It's been no more reactionary than most other nations in the world. There is absolutely long-term planning by the majority of states. To the extent that states are frantically changing their strategies, it's because we're learning more about the virus and how it spreads, and shifting our strategies. Take New York, for example. Its high death rate can be largely attributed to Governor Cuomo's disastrous decision to fo…

> To this date, Florida has among the lowest deaths per capita in the Union [4: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/ ].

Check that ref again; Florida is ranked at almost exactly the midpoint.

Re: Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains

#420

Post by mirimir »

robbiep wrote: post #414
mirimir wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry :( Maybe she carries that susceptibility sequence from Neanderthals. It'd also be good to focus on isolating people with that and other relevant genetic markers.

So basically focus on isolating all people above 60, all people with comorbidities, and any with genetic sequences that are ill-defined, likely many of them that we haven’t uncovered, and more expensive to test for than Covid screening? Easy. Or lockdowns, easy accessibility to testing and good contract tracing. Which has worked well in lots of countries

> Which has worked well in lots of countries

Has it really? Lots of people in LTC facilities have died, no?

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