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Searchable PPP Loan Data

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Re: Searchable PPP Loan Data

#331

Post by dragonwriter »

aleksandrm wrote: post #330
eric_b wrote: post #77

So many complaints here. Based on the comments I think there is some misunderstanding about the nuts and bolts of this program. These are loans. They are two year low interest loans. They have to be paid back unless some or all is forgiven. Forgiveness requires documentation on employees retained, wage history, and is capped at $20k/employee maximum. And of course a piece of that comes back to the government in terms…

Care to elaborate how could a household receive 4k plus in stimulus? Was it 4 different people who had earned 99k or less in one household?

> Care to elaborate how could a household receive 4k plus in stimulus?

Married couple with up to $150K AGI ($2,400) + 4 dependent children ($500 × 4) is $4,400.

Re: Searchable PPP Loan Data

#333

Post by katzgrau »

_curious_ wrote: post #297
dopamean wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most of the loan isn't designed to be paid back. So what are you getting at?

Some people - and the companies they operate - will, given the option, on principle, not take money which they have not earned. In the event that they did/do accept said money they did not earn, and that money was applied effectively and literally saved their asses in an emergency that they were not properly prepared for - they would never forget it and do whatever it took to repay this money that saved their life be…

> Would I rather work for an employer who did what it took to navigate the Covid shitstorm on their own dime

I don't know about that. Every accountant I knew urged their clients to apply — primarily because there were so many unknowns — at the worst of it, it seemed like things had a sincere chance of degrading into a real doomsday scenario.

I would argue that it would be outright irresponsible for a company to forgo applying for PPP. I wouldn't want to work for an employer who would choose to go against the advice of their financial advisors because they wanted make a point.

Re: Searchable PPP Loan Data

#334

Post by katzgrau »

eric_b wrote: post #171
throwaway_USD wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>These are loans. They are two year low interest loans. They have to be paid back unless some or all is forgiven. This is a highly politicized way to frame PPP loans. Its more like: "These loans are forgiven, unless you scammed the government." These loans were specifically designed to be forgiven, a minimum of 75% of the loan was to be for payroll and if used for payroll (what it was supposed to be used for) that po…

Politicized? Give it a rest. Yes, if a company spent 60% (down from 75%) of their loan on payroll, and does not exceed the 20k cap per employee, and retained the same number of employees they had at the beginning of the covered period, and can document all this, and they followed the initial SBA guidance when deciding how big of a loan to apply for, then they will get most or all of the loan forgiven. There are lots…

Is there actually a nail salon that took 5-10MM with only 14 employees? The guidance, at least initially, was to apply for 2 months of gross income and see what you get. You also had to supply supporting documentation.

I'd be shocked if someone somehow got something that egregious through.

Re: Searchable PPP Loan Data

#335

Post by raviolo »

So, what if a business was successful, not impacted by covid, and wasn’t planning to lay off any employees anyway? Say, technology consulting company with 100 employees. Took out a PPP “loan”, which will be promptly forgiven since they keep the staff, who gets to keep the money? Something tells me 100% goes to business owner and 0% to employees.

I think there are quite a few companies like this. Hence “money goes to those who least need it”.

Re: Searchable PPP Loan Data

#336

Post by katzgrau »

adrr wrote: post #240
JPKab wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a lot of weirdness lately about people expecting companies to not take the money. The virus wasn't any company's fault. The choice to respond to the virus by shutting down the economy wasn't any company's fault. Previous epidemics in human history have been dealt with by simply accepting a death rate that modern society, via government policy, has chosen to not accept. This was an unprecedented response that…

Not all businesses shutdown. The issue is that a bunch of businesses took the free money who didn’t need it. We made a choice not to take it because we are booming during crisis. The stimulus checks had criteria to receive them and most people who are doing very well did not get a stimulus check. PPP could easily had a requirement that it had to be paid back if sales/rev increased during 2020 tax year. Instead the mo…

> We made a choice not to take it because we are booming during crisis.

What's strange about that is that there were/are so many unknowns. Sure, you could be booming, but what if the unexpected strikes and you are suddenly not booming due to yet another unforeseeable event? The worst estimates were that millions would die and we'd be heading into an era that would eclipse the great depression.

As prepped as you were, and as well as you were doing — taking every opportunity to add layers of resilience would seem like the smart thing to do, especially when you've got employees with families, customers that depend on you, etc.

Re: Searchable PPP Loan Data

#337

Post by kryogen1c »

throwaway_USD wrote: post #287
kryogen1c wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> those funds could have gone to individuals and the money would have found its way back into the economy just the same...only faster how could this possibly be true? the economy started tanking because people stopped going out and spending money. giving people money wouldnt fix this.

>the economy started tanking because people stopped going out and spending money. People continued spending money...mortgage/rent; car loans/insurance; food; etc... >giving people money wouldnt fix this. PPP didn't fix it did it? There is an eviction and foreclosure crisis looming...giving people money may have done a better job than PPP in avoiding this coming disaster.

> People continued spending money

i must be misunderstanding. surely you're not claiming that ordering people to stay inside and restricting building capacities didn't severely lower business revenue, are you?

> PPP didn't fix it did it?

i dont know why you said this. the PPP almost certainly fixed the short term problems created by a national quarantine. we're not out of the woods yet, but what do you think happened to all the money? you think hundreds of thousands of small business owners simultaneously committed fraud and didnt use the PPP for payroll? the PPP gave people money for rent, how did it not?

Re: Searchable PPP Loan Data

#338

Post by raviolo »

ryanwaggoner wrote: post #286
adrr wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all businesses shutdown. The issue is that a bunch of businesses took the free money who didn’t need it. We made a choice not to take it because we are booming during crisis. The stimulus checks had criteria to receive them and most people who are doing very well did not get a stimulus check. PPP could easily had a requirement that it had to be paid back if sales/rev increased during 2020 tax year. Instead the mo…

There's a strong case to be made that, given our position as the world's reserve currency (without any clear challenger) and our dirt-cheap borrowing costs, the national debt is pretty close to free money. It's not like we're ever going to roll up our sleeves and pay it off, or even down. We'll just inflate it away. I'm not arguing for unrestricted spending, but a couple trillion to avoid economic collapse, borrowed…

Why do we pay taxes then if the government can just borrow that money?

Re: Searchable PPP Loan Data

#339

Post by zzleeper »

raviolo wrote: post #335

So, what if a business was successful, not impacted by covid, and wasn’t planning to lay off any employees anyway? Say, technology consulting company with 100 employees. Took out a PPP “loan”, which will be promptly forgiven since they keep the staff, who gets to keep the money? Something tells me 100% goes to business owner and 0% to employees. I think there are quite a few companies like this. Hence “money goes to…

You are exactly right. In fact, I know of a few businesses that actually had MORE business (wholesalers), and the CEO of one told my friend that he was just going to use the money to buy his wife a new Porsche. This is anecdotal for sure, but there is no reason why firms wouldn't rely on free money as long as they are amoral enough.

If I had implemented the plan, I would have just created a program where the program only covered a % of the wages (say 80% instead of 100%) and mostly only for people who were not able to work. Of course, that brings other problems, but there is a middle ground somewhere in there.

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