You have to look at the excess deaths figures. That is, how many usually dies from January to June in a normal year and compare that to how many extra that died in 2020. For Sweden the excess deaths almost exactly matches the number of Covid deaths, give or take 10%. That is not the case for many other countries. For example, the UK had almost twice the number of excess deaths as Covid deaths in a few weeks in April.…
Considering that the health care systems were partially shut down too, how do you determine that covid was the culprit rather a change in the health care system for those counted as excess deaths?
Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains
151–160 of 720 posts
Re: Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains
#152Earlier quoted context omitted.
This. It's pretty obvious at this point that a general lockdown is worthless as a replacement for locking down care homes specifically - Spain had one of the strictest lockdowns in Europe but massively screwed up their handling of their care homes, and ended up with an even worse per-capital death toll than Sweden. Unfortunately, mainstream media publications have been spinning this instead as evidence that herd immu…
The same thing happened in Quebec and it lead to one of the highest per-capita death rates in the world (5,500/8,500,000) The previous government gutted budgets for care homes which lead to chronic understaffing. When the pandemic hit, the current government enacted a fairly strict lockdown but still did nothing to help the situation in care homes, which was worsened by caretakers staying home by fear of catching the…
Heard on the radio today that we have less educated people working with elder care compared to our neighbours and that this could have made a difference too.
Re: Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains
#153Earlier quoted context omitted.
Unfortunately covid deaths are highly unreliable as there is lots of evidence worldwide that people dying with covid are also counted with those dying of covid. Also lots of cases of dead people being counted while not being tested or positively tested for covid.
During the peak of crisis in NYC, the death rate was ~6 times normal. If those extra deaths weren't from COVID-19, what were they from?
Re: Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains
#154Earlier quoted context omitted.
That is the same as "no strategy". Without coordination of the lockdowns, travel monitoring, national testing and contact tracing, you're just going to have shifting hotspots of infection. This also leaves behind an embittered population whose lockdown sacrifices were for nothing.
That's not the same as "no strategy", because this level of decentralization is how nation-states work today. It's also, incidentally, how the EU works. There are open borders between member states — and while some member states "closed" their borders, this has been largely unenforceable in land crossings because there are no border patrol agents between every single land crossing between EU member states. Border enf…
"Border enforcements have only been enforced at airports." is absolutely not true. For example, I recall the international issue of making transit arrangements through Poland when back in March many people were stranded as the Poland-German border was suddenly closed; if I recall correctly, the agreed solution to repatriate these people was a police-escorted car column that was allowed to transit through Poland without these people being allowed "proper entry", but before that they were stuck for days in their cars as they could not get through the border.
This is a key difference between EU and USA - the Schengen agreement allows member states to temporarily "opt out" of the free travel, reinstate border controls and impose travel restrictions (up to a full closure of borders) for various purposes, and many EU countries did just that due to Covid; while in USA, as far as I understand, the constitution greatly limits the right of states to prohibit interstate travel.
Re: Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains
#155Earlier quoted context omitted.
Unfortunately covid deaths are highly unreliable as there is lots of evidence worldwide that people dying with covid are also counted with those dying of covid. Also lots of cases of dead people being counted while not being tested or positively tested for covid.
During the peak of crisis in NYC, the death rate was ~6 times normal. If those extra deaths weren't from COVID-19, what were they from?
Re: Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains
#156Earlier quoted context omitted.
In an average year, 13/1000 Swedes die anyway . Considering COVID has closed many of life's fun things, there will be an entire generation of people who have effectively "lost" a year of the things they hoped they would do in their lifetime. By stating open, Sweden might decrease life expectancy in years, but increase it in terms of 'things achieved in a lifetime'
> In an average year, 13/1000 Swedes die anyway. Yes, people die. That's true of all countries and all times. What we might call civilized societies have however strived to reduce those numbers as much as possible. This was done by trying to avoid violence, improving lifestyles and developing better medical techniques in order to prevent or repair diseases and injuries. Containing and minimizing the effects of a pand…
Probably impossible to estimate how many people died because of this, and how many will have their lives shorter because they didn't get treatment earlier. Here at local cantonal hospital, this has been recognized as a big failure of general directions given to the population, and is a huge problem for old people.
Its far from the trivialization you make out of it about some kids missing some festivals and parties.
Re: Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains
#157You have to look at the excess deaths figures. That is, how many usually dies from January to June in a normal year and compare that to how many extra that died in 2020. For Sweden the excess deaths almost exactly matches the number of Covid deaths, give or take 10%. That is not the case for many other countries. For example, the UK had almost twice the number of excess deaths as Covid deaths in a few weeks in April.…
The differences are quite a lot and worthy of consideration.
Re: Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains
#158To me this is moving the goalpost. The stated objective of the lockdown was not to overwhelm the ICUs. As far as I know the ICUs in Sweden have not been overwhelmed. So how is that a failure? As for the economic impact, given the amount of life support injections into the economy, I think the real economic impact of the shock is yet to be seen. Defaults are only starting to rise.
The low mortality rate and managed ICU capacity isn't the whole story. there is a large population of recovering and recovered that have serious complications, that seem random and are unproductive to our society. Blood clots resulting in amputations. 90 day recovery time periods. Other unknown and randomly targeted blood oxygen issues.
The mayors and governors and public health ministers are reacting to that in their own municipalities and countries. The outcomes are not equal, the variables have many different names between jurisdictions, and therefore the stats are not easily collectable. But for people on the front line and getting briefed by those on the front line, they see something horrible that they need to move the goal post to "cases" instead of just deaths and ICU capacity.
Re: Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains
#159The amount of deaths in Sweden from Covid19 have been very high and many of the deaths has been completely unnecessary. This is nothing else than a cruel state sponsored murder on parts of the elderly population. Its also likely that the actual death toll is significantly higher than reported since many of the elderly dying at institutions was never tested for Covid19 In-fact at many regions of Sweden autopsies has been suspended during parts of the spring. The recommended treatment for these elderly has been injection of morphine (yes to elders with breathing difficulties).
There are stories of staff sometimes opening the windows while elderly confined to their rooms grasping for air. Family was not allowed to visit but staff was moving without protection gear between the rooms of sick and healthy ( because in Sweden the government early decided that masks are ineffective ways of protection ). Its still the official stance of Sweden that masks does not help against Covid19. But apparently sneasing in your armpit and washing your hands helps. In the beginning this was applied also at the institutions for the elderly. Some heroes objected and bought gear and significantly lowered the death rate early on. Others followed the advice from the "experts" as a good swede does. And the result sometimes was 50-75% dead in the total population of residents at the care facilities.
The Architect behind these state sponsored acts of murder is a man called Anders Tegnell. And you will be surprised to learn that this is the second time this very dangerous narcissist has been causing suffering and deaths in Sweden. Back in 2009 during H1N1 influenza (swine-flue) he was the person responsible for the purchasing and injecting the unsafe Pandemrix vaccine in the Swedish population as head of the vaccine department. Today it has amounted to a total of 600 then children and youths developing narcolepsy. He spent the following years defending the government against the victims who was seeking economic indemnity from the Swedish state medical insurance. When the Swedish newspaper Svenska Dagbladet later acquired emails of this mater he was caught on record emailing that the goverment agency he was working for at the time "was at a point of no return politically".
He was then recruited as the State Epidemiologist of the Public Health Agency of Sweden in 2013 as a thank you for his service. Now in 2020 he is directly responsible for the deaths of about 5500 swedes. You could argue that he is also responsible for some of the deaths in neighboring countries where there have been imported cases from Sweden.
This person already before the beginning of 2020 had caused 600 direct cases of mistreatment can now add 5500 deaths to his CV. And likely 1000s of people with lung-damages, muscle damaged and other severe trauma damage from intensive care. There are also reports of increased diabetes onset among Covid19 survivors and the ME/CFS that will likely be the result for many who got the disease.
If you are interested of the numbers and statistics you can check https://c19.se/ it has deaths and infected on a regional level. It can be helpful to understand that the city of Stockholm has had 2344 officially dead and 21490 official cases among its population of 975904. Tests results of antibodies have been reported in ranges from about 10% - 17%. But since testing was not allowed for most people until very recently the numbers can be either spot on or very off.
Re: Sweden: higher Covid-19 death rate while failing to collect on economic gains
#160I find this article a little disingenuous and here is why: Sweden-5420 deaths out of a population of 10 million while no lock down. Michigan-6005 deaths out of a population of 10 million and we have been locked down since mid March. To be clear, I was in favor of the lockdown at first and I still am in favor of keeping things like bars and casinos closed but it’s become clear that the virus doesn’t have much affect o…
Well Sweden closed its borders, where Michigan can’t close its borders to other states, so Michigan’s is naturally higher.
https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/governor-cuomo-announces-in...