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Searchable PPP Loan Data

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Re: Searchable PPP Loan Data

#221

Post by lotsofpulp »

digitaltrees wrote: post #194
lotsofpulp wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the goal wasn’t to help the people most affected. It was to maintain the socioeconomic order so that people would be incentivized to continue doing menial work for low wages. If you give people at the bottom a choice to not work, by giving them cash directly, then they would have better negotiating power versus employers. The employers would then have to raise wages, and therefore prices. That means consumers…

I don’t think you can make this argument when at the same time the government was paying an extra $600 per week on top of regular pay for unemployment.

That’s only if your employer has laid you off. If they continued your employment or called you back to work for $12/hour, you aren’t eligible for unemployment anymore. And if you refuse to go back to work, then you are also not eligible for unemployment benefits.

Re: Searchable PPP Loan Data

#222

Post by robhunter »

throwaway_USD wrote: post #164
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Totally agree, and I think this is important to emphasize. I was involved in researching the requirements for a PPP loan for a nonprofit. I can guarantee that the vast majority of businesses (like 95%+) took out these loans with the intention they would never be paid back. Indeed, that was a feature, not a bug, of the whole "loan" program. If you took out the loans to keep employees on staff (and did so), then you ha…

>So it kind of irks me to see some people frame this like a large percentage of these loans will be paid back. I constantly see this..."its not free money, its a loan, and the money will be paid back with interest, just like in 2008." No, its free money for businesses, many of which will fail and let their employees go anyway. Then you hear people claim how somehow it was a victory to keep people off unemployment for…

I think it's helpful to follow the money.

If it goes to salaries, those salaries are taxed (both payroll taxes for the employer and income taxes for the employee).

Those salaries, for the most part, get spent - on things with sales tax, creating business profits that are taxed, and supporting the employment of employees' whose wages are also taxed.

The idea that it's one giant money suck for businesses with no immediate return to the economy is not really accurate - it's not a zero-sum game.

Re: Searchable PPP Loan Data

#223

Post by digitaltrees »

fullstop wrote: post #104
ksdale wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't get forgiveness for wages you don't pay.

Is there any penalty for increasing wages after receiving the "loan" ?

It was unclear originally but the SBA issued guidance that this was acceptable. Think about it, isn’t hazard pay for employees coming back to work at risk of Covid exposure ok? Shouldn’t we applaud companies willing to pass PPP to employees?

Let’s not be so quick to label everything fraud, or greed. Sure some people will misuse funds. But most wont. Most people are good.

Re: Searchable PPP Loan Data

#224

Post by robhunter »

balls187 wrote: post #212
codegeek wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not necessarily disagreeing with you but a lot of small businesses in the US survive on thin margins and the owners also don't make a lot of money necessarily. So it is not always the case that a company only has to worry about income. They have to worry about paying employees, ensuring they can meet payroll (which in turn helps families of those workers), keep liabilities in check and many other issues. I am to…

The outrage is that the money didn't go to small businesses, but rather large ones who had the means to cheat the system.

Why would there be outrage? There is $130b+ in PPP remaining for small businesses and it's incredibly easy to apply now.

Re: Searchable PPP Loan Data

#226

Post by ryanwaggoner »

hardtke wrote: post #86

My kids' private school recently sent out a $500 per student tuition credit (about $650K for the entire school). I see now that they got a multi million dollar PPP loan (which will be forgiven). Their revenues were unaffected by the epidemic (full enrollment for next year and no plans to rollback the tuition increase).

My kid's private school also got a PPP loan, but I don't begrudge them that at all. They applied for the program according to the rules and they're using that money to pay for necessities. While our school also hasn't (yet) lost much in the way of enrollment, their finances are worse now:

- more costs for financial aid

- more costs for cleaning and retrofitting facilities

- more costs for experts on reopening safely

- more costs for online education programs (software, training, etc)

- refunds of after-school programs, field trips, etc.

- fewer donations from alumni

The only thing that's really improved is maybe utilities? They 100% would have laid off teachers if they didn't get the PPP. It's ludicrous that people are begrudging schools for using this program exactly as intended.

Re: Searchable PPP Loan Data

#227

Post by hprotagonist »

_curious_ wrote: post #192
hprotagonist wrote: post #139

Without this program, my employer would have had to either lay off a large group of employees or we would've gone under. As it is, out of a group of about 50, we furloughed 8, who continued without pay, qualified for unemployment benefits, but retained 100% health coverage. Two have returned to work already and we anticipate being more or less normal again in time to meet the loan forgiveness criteria. It's good to h…

So will your employer be paying the "loan" back?

if we can avoid it, certainly not. It's very transparently only a loan if you fuck it up and can't bail yourself out in time. If you can get back on your feet, it's a relief program, so that's the strong incentive from our board to demonstrate, by way of restoring people to full pay and hours, that we have been sufficiently relieved.

Re: Searchable PPP Loan Data

#228

Post by digitaltrees »

unethical_ban wrote: post #7

There are several scenarios that frustrate me. Examples like law firms or physicians' offices. These are relatively small firms with very wealthy principals. They are asking for taxpayer money to maintain their wealthy lifestyles, so they don't have to sacrifice their Bentleys to pay staffers. Examples: Thomas J Henry in San Antonio. LLCs and franchisees that probably have millions of dollars in holdings and cash, bu…

First, you don’t know the nature of these businesses. Second, the PPP has a salary cap of 150k specifically to ensure that it doesn’t “support wealthy lifestyle”. Third, most companies, even law firms and physicians offices have a range of employees, most of which don’t generate any revenue. PPP covers their salary. Finally, do you want to let law firms and doctors go out of business? Are you ok with the economic impact of a wave of spending cuts and bankruptcies?

Re: Searchable PPP Loan Data

#229

Post by evan_ »

mushbino wrote: post #214
tinalumfoil wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Should they not have taken it? I seriously considered not cashing my stimulus check until I talked to multiple well off people that cashed their dead relative's checks. There just isnt a cultural expectation in the US that you wouldn't take what you're given. EDIT: Rethinking my comment I'm giving myself too much credit. Since I never got a physical check, I couldn't have "not cashed it" if I wanted to.

To your point, I know a bunch of people who applied for the forgivable loans just to see if they could get it. I know a guy who owns over two hundred Domino's franchises and got a $6M forgivable loan and his business has been up 30% since covid started. He can't hire people fast enough. Another friend was pissed that he wasn't approved for a loan too even though he has zero employees.

Taking on a lot of new employees and increasing production cost a lot of money up front that you won't recoup instantly, cashflow is a killer

Re: Searchable PPP Loan Data

#230

Post by digitaltrees »

WaxProlix wrote: post #119
bdcravens wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Religious organizations. It's one thing if something like a local YMCA gets funds, but a church outright getting funds without proving it is going to public services (why don't we just have better public services?) is not proper. Churches already don't pay taxes. They still have to pay their employees, which is the point of the PPP. Those employees are paid from the funds that come in via donations, which are likel…

> The requirements of the PPP require that at least 60% must go to salaries. My understanding was that 60% of what you don't have to pay back goes to salary. The money that went to salaries and an additional 67% you just keep. Is that right?

No that’s not right. The company has to spend 60% on salary. Then there are a range of forgivable expenses which is a very narrow category. Any PPP funds spend on any thing else 1. Risk criminal charges of misuse of funds at the worst, or 2. Become a loan. And right now we don’t know which option, 1 or 2 the government will favor.
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