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Academic acceleration in gifted youth: a 35-year longitudinal study

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Re: Academic acceleration in gifted youth: a 35-year longitudinal study

#171
post #120

I have a 6 year old daughter who has been taking lessons with the 3rd graders this past year. I just had a conference with her teachers and they are ok to jump her a grade. They thought two grades would have been too much socially. But they did agree to give her advanced lessons. She is in a Montessori where grades 1-3 are together. I really believe all children have the potential for genius. Its all in how they are…

Would you care to elaborate on the Pygmalion effect? How did you raise your child?

My wife and I read to her a lot when she was young. We gave her lots of open ended play with lots of arts and crafts.

My wife taught her to read right around when she turned 4. I was also applying some of the techniques from Glen Doman in his book How to teach your Baby to Read.

I think learning to read is what really helped her excel. She was reading 2nd grade chapter books by the time she started kindergarten. Once you know how to read, you can learn about the other subjects.

There is more that we did, but I think reading to her and teaching her to read where the biggest parts of it. The idea that any child has the potential for genius came from Glen's book. I really think its true. Even if you only spent 15-30 minutes a day, that is enough to have a profound influence on the child.

Re: Academic acceleration in gifted youth: a 35-year longitudinal study

#172
post #28

I wonder if they lack good ways of measuring this. I skipped a few grades and started university at 15. It took years to catch up socially and in many ways I never did. I wouldn't recommend it. In retrospect, I'd say a better thing to do with a smart kid is to convince them that they should work on things they're not as good at. Nobody's good at everything. However, that would have required individual attention of a…

>In retrospect, I'd say a better thing to do with a smart kid is to convince them that they should work on things they're not as good at. Nobody's good at everything. However, that would have required individual attention of a sort that wasn't available back then. Yes and no. On the one hand, there is a lot to be said for ensuring a balance in learning, making sure that everyone has basic competence in a number of th…

I'd change the phrasing to: "...work on A thing they're not good at, but that they'd like to be good at."

It's an important lesson - struggling with something that you're bad at, that you don't particularly enjoy (yet), until you get good at it, then (usually) finding that you've begun to actually enjoy the thing. For someone who has only does things which come easy to them, the experience is both humbling and empowering. It also teaches that our interests are a bit malleable, and that they're often based on nothing more than our current ability, which can be improved.

Re: Academic acceleration in gifted youth: a 35-year longitudinal study

#173
post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My comment by itself certainly isn't an adequate summary. That's why I recommended a whole book.

You claimed that "the data shows they work" and I was pushing back against that because it is false. Charters failed in LAUSD, the second-largest school system in the US. It was honestly tried here, with the backing of several successive mayors, and donations from several rich foundations and billionaires. It turned out the profit motive wasn't as helpful in this setting as abstract speculation had supposed. Speaking…

I'll read yours if you read mine! I think Charter Schools and their Enemies may contain some stuff on CA schools but I haven't gotten that far yet. It starts out talking about NYC schools. It literally contains tables of data. I know that neither of us can come to a well-rounded conclusion without putting in a good faith effort to listen to arguments from both sides. It would be nice to be able to come back after doing so and continue the discussion.

Re: Academic acceleration in gifted youth: a 35-year longitudinal study

#174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or just normalize school funding at a national level and get rid of the racist classism our predecessors built into law. Good schools should stand out for their teachers not how much tax the residents pay.

Or attach funding to each kid and let schools compete.

I am not suggesting a be all end all fix for education. Obviously, school choice has its place in any healthy system.

Re: Academic acceleration in gifted youth: a 35-year longitudinal study

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Exactly. Precisely the same thing for me. I was reading at an absurdly young age. School for me was a special sort of hell where I was able to read at a 12th grade level in 3rd grade, and yet a decade later was in class with people who could not yet read. I would stare at the clock and switch between sleeping and being insanely bored. I'm 31 years old now and I feel I have enough life experience to call it what…

What helped me get through the boredom of school was to learn to daydream. Any time there's something boring going on I can tune out from that and daydream. Walking around while doing it is great. The downside of it is that it's not productive and once you're out of school you don't need it to occupy your time, but you still want to.

Daydreaming ruined my life

partial /s

Re: Academic acceleration in gifted youth: a 35-year longitudinal study

#176
post #28

I wonder if they lack good ways of measuring this. I skipped a few grades and started university at 15. It took years to catch up socially and in many ways I never did. I wouldn't recommend it. In retrospect, I'd say a better thing to do with a smart kid is to convince them that they should work on things they're not as good at. Nobody's good at everything. However, that would have required individual attention of a…

> I wouldn't recommend it.

Similar story here, and one often-ignored downside of starting college early is that, in the end, how old you were when you started doesn't matter, but the grades you made do (to the extent that any of it matters). I graduated with a 3.5 GPA - not bad, but I'll always wonder if I had started when I was the same age as everybody else, would I have managed to pull a 4.0?

I'm advising my own son to take his time, but try to get the best grades he can - you don't get bonus points for starting before everybody else.

Re: Academic acceleration in gifted youth: a 35-year longitudinal study

#177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not quite what I had in mind, though. I lived in Switzerland as well, and it seems more like a traditional education system where everyone in the academic stream still needs to learn a broad range of subjects at the same pace as each other. Also having a single cutoff time at roughly age 12 seems quite harsh to me. I'm more thinking that you could learn English at an age-average pace while being ahead in math…

Yep, I understand. I'm not aware of school systems going as far as what you describe. That's an interesting concept, though I'm not sure how practical that would be. A set of random thoughts: - I would expect that would require more teachers which is already a scarce resource in a lot of places - Also, you mention mostly individual learning and progression, but I would also expect part of school to be about group lea…

> I guess that would make school classes a more fluid concept, where you are with your advanced math friends for 2 hours, then with kids from the average English course for 2 hours. So you don't have a common group of kids spending their school time together.

This is typical of the current American education system, at least from middle school or junior high onward, where you tend to have roughly six different classes per day with different students in each class. Although math is the only class where they will typically move advanced students ahead. You definitely lose the social cohesion that is present in elementary/primary school where you spend the whole day with the same group of kids.

Re: Academic acceleration in gifted youth: a 35-year longitudinal study

#178
Total honesty time. This topic has bothered me for years.

I went to public school and did every honors program / enrichment class / etc. that we had. Nothing that showed me how to think about learning, however. I'll get to that below. Furthermore, everything was easy enough that nobody ever found out I had severe issues focusing on the material because the pacing was so slow. I didn't think of these things as a problem at the time. I thought it was normal to daydream then learn math sort of looking in reverse, in review of what was covered "yesterday, while I was dreaming" or similar. More importantly though, given the ease of the curriculum, from an early age I thought of school as a game -- a type of intelligence test where the object was to do as well as possible with the minimum effort, using only the materials provided by the teacher, and the class lecture. This was reinforced by my peer group of course, but also parents and authority figures always telling me I was smart. With friends, the mantra, "You aren't smart if you have to work hard" was the sort of maxim we obeyed.

This all proved to be an absolutely disastrous set of notions when I finally arrived at university. I daydreamed through calculus -- I didn't have the skill of focusing. I took misinformed and patchy notes and, still playing the intelligence game, used those notes as my only source of information. I played the game until undergrad was finished. I graduated... I'd gotten by on geometric intuition and educated guesswork. I made b's and c's. Even as I failed at my own game, I wondered what was wrong with me. Why was I not smart enough?

Only at the end of my BS, after falling off the treadmill I assumed would simply spit me out in a professorship somewhere, did I realize what a mistake I'd made. The mistake, of course, in not taking every opportunity to maximize what I learned and to investigate what I was curious about -- indeed, what I loved. Only then, with no options, no academic structure before me, with every opportunity (seemingly) past, did my eyes open to see the world as it was, and not as the intelligence game. I type this now, 16 years later, in my home office; a shrine to self learning... At that time, I dug out my calculus books and started over. Soon I went to grad school for something easy -- something I could get into based on the existence of my engineering degree alone (a degree for which in and of itself, I was basically unemployable, or at least to which I did not trust myself to struggle onward and use in that way). Meanwhile I taught myself calculus over again from page 1, and began to resurrect my prospects in the most painful way possible. Piece by piece I scrapped my education together, getting my PhD in engineering (not physics like I wanted) years late.

I've a very wide education now, but I am always wondering what could have been, and now I have a toddler, almost 2 years old. One thing about the above I know: I just want to make sure he never goes through such a process with wool over his eyes. I want him to know from the start how to direct his curiosity into learning what he wants, at his own pace.

Re: Academic acceleration in gifted youth: a 35-year longitudinal study

#179

There is no argument against academic acceleration beyond that it increases inequality of achievement. If the school system was about education more than childcare acceleration would be the norm for bright children and we’d have 14 year olds starting their Bachelor’s level studies in every school and 20 year olds who already had doctorates in every city of any size. Instead we waste their time, to their detriment and…

I've long wondered why education isn't just a bunch of different ladders that people can crawl at their own pace. For instance my kid is starting to read about stuff they normally only introduce in high school, but there's no way he will ever be examined on it until then (he's turning 8 in a few weeks). If someone wants to learn something, luckily these says we have the likes of Khan Academy and other internet resour…

The rationale is to make good soldiers for 19th century warfare.

For that goal, discipline and conformity are more important than maximizing individual achievement.

Re: Academic acceleration in gifted youth: a 35-year longitudinal study

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, I understand. I'm not aware of school systems going as far as what you describe. That's an interesting concept, though I'm not sure how practical that would be. A set of random thoughts: - I would expect that would require more teachers which is already a scarce resource in a lot of places - Also, you mention mostly individual learning and progression, but I would also expect part of school to be about group lea…

> I guess that would make school classes a more fluid concept, where you are with your advanced math friends for 2 hours, then with kids from the average English course for 2 hours. So you don't have a common group of kids spending their school time together. This is typical of the current American education system, at least from middle school or junior high onward, where you tend to have roughly six different classe…

That’s interesting, I wasn’t aware that was a thing. Thanks for sharing
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