Int. students may need to leave US if classes are 100% Remote • Hacker News Board

Re: Int. students may need to leave US if classes are 100% Remote

#61

Post by burkaman » Tue, Jul 07, 2020, 5:11 PM UTC

hpoe wrote: post #5

I know this will be very unpleasant and will entail a lot of hardship for a lot of people but I can't help but wonder if in the long term this will help to start reversing the "brain drain" problem that many developing nations are struggling with. They'll still have access to their classes and be able to acquire the requisite skills, but now they'll be building something in their home country not stuck in a middle ti…

No, they're going to transfer to a school that's still holding in-person classes. Many international students do not have the money/internet access/stable home situation to go home and continue taking classes.

Here's one major problem off the top of my head: what if you're from China or Iran and your school uses G Suite for Education? Accessing classes from home would be literally illegal.

Re: Int. students may need to leave US if classes are 100% Remote

#62

Post by kyawzazaw » Tue, Jul 07, 2020, 5:11 PM UTC

bdcravens wrote: post #42

Afton wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know several developers from developing nations that have strong ties to their countries of origin, and engage heavily in various "good works" there. They have massively more resources to do so due to their salaries in the US than they would if they were stuck in their countries of origin.

Is the value of their charity greater than the cost of the country losing their talent? The "teach a man to fish" proverb comes to mind.

It is. Infrastructure, strong simple institutions simply do not exist.

And these people brain drained for a while and coming back later is better for those countries.

Re: Int. students may need to leave US if classes are 100% Remote

#63

Post by mc32 » Tue, Jul 07, 2020, 5:11 PM UTC

compscistd wrote: post #56

gcbw3 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The university i'm associated with, because of the pandemic, not only all the international students are having online classes, but the international grad students teaching the classes are giving them online too. And all those grad students on a teaching scholarship were told to remain in the US because their scholarship is tied to being residents of the State for some tax reason or another for the institution. fun t…

Couldn't they offer a required in-class portion of their degree (INT 5001: "Let's Talk about COVID and being international students for 20 minutes") for all international students where completion is required for their degree but attendance is optional? Effectively, no one physically goes to the class, but it's enough to keep students in the US because it's not an online-only class.

I don’t know if that would work. The whole reason for the on-site requirement is to avoid or clamp down on Visa scams. And a loophole like that is exactly what a scam school would do.

Re: Int. students may need to leave US if classes are 100% Remote

#64

Post by rajup » Tue, Jul 07, 2020, 5:11 PM UTC

curiousllama wrote: post #43

This is just another step in a broad-based program to make sure as few highly qualified people as possible can come to learn and work in the US. (1) F1 visas have been effectively banned in much of the world since COVID started - the required interviews could only be done in now-closed centers. (2) H1B, L1, H4, and J1 visas have been suspended until the end of the year, leaving OPT transfers, H1B lottery winners (alr…

Minor nit: I believe H1B transfers for people already in the country are still being processed. But your broader point of the US government actively preventing global talent from entering the country stands. Very sad indeed.

Re: Int. students may need to leave US if classes are 100% Remote

#65

Post by Blahah » Tue, Jul 07, 2020, 5:11 PM UTC

PeterisP wrote: post #37

Loughla wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Foreign students can only take 1 online class at our institution due to current policy. When we scrambled to move all online during the stay-home orders, one question we didn't have answered was whether or not those students could even stay if we went entirely online. The policy didn't change at all, it's super restrictive. What institutions I'm affiliated with are asking is for temporary flexibility during COVID-19.…

It's not like any education representative can change immigration policy or grant some exceptions, it's not up to them. If taking online classes means that the students visas become invalid, or if their current visa restrictions mean that it's prohibited for them to be in an online-only program, then that's exactly what it means, and it's wrong to blame schools or education department about it, it's not about educati…

Surely every person involved should simply be turning to the people above/before them in the chain of command and saying "this is impossible, we need to be more flexible now". And whoever is blocking that escalation is reasonably part of the problem.

Re: Int. students may need to leave US if classes are 100% Remote

#66

Post by fuckyah » Tue, Jul 07, 2020, 5:12 PM UTC

curiousllama wrote: post #43

This is just another step in a broad-based program to make sure as few highly qualified people as possible can come to learn and work in the US. (1) F1 visas have been effectively banned in much of the world since COVID started - the required interviews could only be done in now-closed centers. (2) H1B, L1, H4, and J1 visas have been suspended until the end of the year, leaving OPT transfers, H1B lottery winners (alr…

So where do all the open slots at universities go to now?

Re: Int. students may need to leave US if classes are 100% Remote

#67

Post by jhpriestley » Tue, Jul 07, 2020, 5:13 PM UTC

HarryHirsch wrote: post #40

The missing perspective is that there are visa mills just as there are diploma mills, and that enforcement from both Immigration and Customs and Department of Education is piss-weak. They should have gotten on top of these institutions long ago, but they wouldn't, so here we are. There is Georgia Tech, but there is also the College of Northern Virginia. Here is some background: https://cis.org/Report/Dregs-Higher-Edu…

The missing context on your comment is that the CIS is a hate group according to the SPLC, which is among other heinous things in favor of the family separation policy, a crime against humanity.

Re: Int. students may need to leave US if classes are 100% Remote

#68

Post by kerneltime » Tue, Jul 07, 2020, 5:13 PM UTC

HarryHirsch wrote: post #40

The missing perspective is that there are visa mills just as there are diploma mills, and that enforcement from both Immigration and Customs and Department of Education is piss-weak. They should have gotten on top of these institutions long ago, but they wouldn't, so here we are. There is Georgia Tech, but there is also the College of Northern Virginia. Here is some background: https://cis.org/Report/Dregs-Higher-Edu…

So instead of investigating visa mills, lets kick students out of US who are attending Georgia Tech? What was the saying about throwing the baby with the bath water..

Re: Int. students may need to leave US if classes are 100% Remote

#69

Post by twsttest » Tue, Jul 07, 2020, 5:13 PM UTC

curiousllama wrote: post #43

This is just another step in a broad-based program to make sure as few highly qualified people as possible can come to learn and work in the US. (1) F1 visas have been effectively banned in much of the world since COVID started - the required interviews could only be done in now-closed centers. (2) H1B, L1, H4, and J1 visas have been suspended until the end of the year, leaving OPT transfers, H1B lottery winners (alr…

The US allows over 1 million immigrants per year. Maybe less the past year, but still extremely high on an immigrant per capita basis.

H1B was being abused and needed to be reigned in.

There are still plenty of people coming into the country through various means, the US is still extremely generous with immigration.

There are plenty of qualified citizens here and in the zero sum game that is hiring national immigration policy should put their needs first before anyone else's.

Re: Int. students may need to leave US if classes are 100% Remote

#70

Post by kevingadd » Tue, Jul 07, 2020, 5:13 PM UTC

compscistd wrote: post #56

gcbw3 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The university i'm associated with, because of the pandemic, not only all the international students are having online classes, but the international grad students teaching the classes are giving them online too. And all those grad students on a teaching scholarship were told to remain in the US because their scholarship is tied to being residents of the State for some tax reason or another for the institution. fun t…

Couldn't they offer a required in-class portion of their degree (INT 5001: "Let's Talk about COVID and being international students for 20 minutes") for all international students where completion is required for their degree but attendance is optional? Effectively, no one physically goes to the class, but it's enough to keep students in the US because it's not an online-only class.

ICE generally is not fond of people circumventing the rules. You'd basically be taking your students' tuition and then rolling the dice to see how badly they get punished by ICE, possibly including imprisonment, deportation, and a lifetime ban from the US.